The Last Testament Vol 3 05

Fifth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 3 by Osho.
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George Lurie, USA Today; Jeannie Senior, The Oregonian, Portland; Bill Graves, The Bend Bulletin, Bend, Oregon

I’d appreciate brief answers, and I’ll try to keep my questions precise. Last night you spoke of hijackings and other extreme measures. Could a mass action like the one that occurred in Jonestown could ever occur here at Rajneeshpuram.

Never. Hiroshima can occur here but not Jonestown. If anything happens here, the responsibility will be of President Ronald Reagan. And the whole America will be condemned for it. And it will be a betrayal of American constitution and its great values.

I’d like to know how the AIDS epidemic has caused you to reevaluate your attitude towards sex between your followers.

There is no problem, just people have to be a little more cautious. They have to take precautions.
Six thousand sannyasins have been tested. They are free of AIDS. These people have been given all the instructions to use condoms and gloves, stop kissing, start new ways of loving: for example, rubbing each other’s noses, pressing each other’s earlobes. But kissing is absolutely prohibited.

I’d like to know what your current immigration status is.

The same as it was four years before, the first day I had entered America. And I think it will remain the same the day I leave my body.
I have never seen such an idiotic bureaucracy anywhere. Four years and they have not been able to decide anything this way or that. And the reason is: yes they cannot say because of the politicians and their pressure, and if they say no then I am going to the courts, because their no will be against the constitution.
So they are in a dilemma. So let them be in a dilemma. I am not starving without their green card. I am not going to eat it. And they are unnecessarily harassing themselves. I am not harassed. I have simply forgotten all about it.
I have been four-year-old American already. And a fresh American is far better than the rotten old corpses.

You’ve said in the past that you’d prefer assassination to a natural death. Do you anticipate assassination?

Every day there are phone calls, letters, threats to assassinate. I don’t care a bit about them. And attempts to assassinate me have already been made in India. Twice I have been poisoned. Once a knife has been thrown at me.
And I was just joking when I said that I would prefer assassination better. Ninety-nine percent people die on their beds. That’s a very common and ordinary way of dying. In fact, everyone should be afraid to go to sleep on the bed. That is the place where ninety-nine percent of humanity has died. You should pull your mattress on the floor, that is better.

Since the commune appears to function both spiritually and financially around you, after you’re gone what will become of Rajneeshpuram and your followers?

They are intelligent people. They will find ways to function. I am no one to decide their future. I will leave it open for their intelligence to function.
Even now I don’t decide anything. I simply explain my position, my attitude. Then it is up to them to do whatsoever they want.
The ultimate decision is their own. They cannot throw the responsibility on me.

I’d like to know where you envision yourself and this commune ten years from now.

I never think of the future. Ten year is too long. I don’t think even for ten minutes afterwards, what is going to happen.
Future is simply nonexistent. This moment is enough for me. And I am enjoying it to its fullest.

Do you travel much outside the commune aside from your drives?

No. Even my drives are within the Rancho Rajneesh, our own land. I don’t go out.

Between your collection - the commune’s collection - of Rolls Royces and its quite extensive bus system, your elegant clothes and the sannyasins’ simple red clothes, even your differing statements to your followers and the press from day to day, there seem to be so many stark contrasts here. I get the feeling that it’s intentional. Is that the case?

I believe in the uniqueness of every individual. I am not a communist. I don’t possess anything. These robes are also possessed by the commune. It is their generosity, hospitality, that they provide me whatever they can do for a guest. I am not a member of the commune, I am not a sannyasin. They love me. And love knows no boundaries.
But I don’t take anything into my possession. I am as unpossessed as I was born, just naked. Everything that I am using - my shoes, my hat, my watch - they all belong to the commune. And you should also know, they are all created by my own sannyasins.. Even my watch is created by my own sannyasins.
And all the Rolls Royces.I use only one Rolls Royce for one and a half hour per day.
They love me, they want to do something to me, and they know that my whole philosophy is not of poverty but of abundance. So they go on pouring as much as they can.
Just today a new Rolls Royce limousine has come, and in the coming week five more will be coming. But they all belong to the commune. And whatever they want to do with them they can do.
In fact, I had told to the press that I would like them to be distributed among sannyasins, but the trust that holds Rolls Royces is not willing to do that for two reasons. First, the commune has enough cars, more than needed.
I always believe in abundance in everything. The commune has more buses, more than needed. It has more airplanes than it ever uses. So there is no point, according to the trustees, to give Rolls Royces to the commune. It will be heavy unnecessarily on the commune.
Secondly, they think that because I have used them they have become sacred, and they don’t want those cars to be used by anyone else. They will remain as a memorial.

Will you have anything to do with appointing or choosing someone to succeed you?

No. Nobody succeeds me, because enlightenment is not something that you can somebody. It is not a post.
The commune will choose their president, the commune will choose their vice-president. That is up to the commune. But I hold no post. I don’t have any power except my love and my trust in my people.
Even if somebody misuses, takes advantage of my love, it does not matter to me. My love remains the same.
There is no way to find another person to succeed me. Once they have lost me, they have lost me forever.

When I was here last week I recall you saying during one of your addresses to the commune members that you purposefully chose Sheela and willingly allowed her to continue what you called her reign of terror in order to give your followers what you referred to as a taste of fascism. Were you serious or was this a joke?


Does that mean, then, that generally you did know of some of the things that Sheela must be doing?

No. I did not know anything that she was doing. One thing I knew, that she will do something which will give a taste to the commune of fascism. And it is good to have a taste of fascism so that you don’t get into the trap again.
And it is better to give that experience while I am here.
I stopped it before it could have become too much. And now my people will remain aware, and they will know how it happens, how it grows and how it destroys everybody’s freedom, individuality, integrity.
I was absolutely serious when I said it.

And yet you say you stopped it. My impression is that Sheela left without you knowing and on her own accord.

I stopped it without her knowing. The moment I started speaking she was finished. Being here was of no more of any nourishment to her ego. Except leaving like a coward, she could not do anything else.
I never said her to leave. In my whole life I have never said anybody to leave. I just create the situation that you have to leave.
I started speaking and that was enough. She was finished. Her whole power was that I was silent, and in my name she could exploit my people, could manage anything she wanted them to do. Once I started speaking, no representative was needed, no mediator was needed. I was face to face with my people. She was absolutely useless.
Unless she was able to become again the same old sannyasin as everybody else, this was the only way: to escape like a coward.
And she will suffer. And she will repent.

Whether you knew specifically or not, when you answered my original question that you did appoint her in order to give your followers a taste of fascism, had she succeeded in poisoning the water system of The Dalles as you allege she wanted to, or having killed more than the single individual that you allege she killed, would not part of that responsibility be on your shoulders?

No, it is her responsibility because I have never told her to do these things. She could have been a fascist without doing these things. These are not necessary to be a fascist.
And I have never given any details for her. She never asked me.
It was a very general statement. A taste of fascism is good exercise for all those who are going to live longer than me. Once I am gone, if then somebody starts becoming fascist, it will be impossible for them to stop it. But now I have destroyed that possibility completely.

Jeannie Senior,
The Oregonian

You said was that you hadn’t been invited to talk to the police yet and you advised your sannyasins not to talk to the police until you had talked to the police. And you set some conditions under which you wanted to talk to the police. You said you wanted to have the press present and have a video crew there and an audio crew there.
Are you going to maintain that stand? The police don’t traditionally do this when they’re interviewing a witness. Are you asking for special treatment?

First I had asked for no special treatment, just for an interview so that I can give them an overview what the situation is and they can work better to find out who is the criminal. They made the appointment and then at the last moment they canceled it.
Then this went on happening second time again. It was only third time that I made it that, “There seems to be something fishy and you canceled the appointment only after asking somebody higher up. Then I would like it to be videotaped so that you don’t do any mischief, because now I cannot trust you. The videotape will not be released to the public. That we will give you in a written contract that the videotape will remain sealed till the case is over. But it will be a guarantee that you don’t misuse anything or change anything which I say.”
I don’t think it was anything against law.
And when they accepted that, that means certainly they were not thinking it as an special obligation. And then they canceled that too.
Third time they canceled it. And then I told them that, “I will give you one time more, and if fourth time it is canceled then I am going to call a press conference and give the interview to the press conference.”

So that’s what you did last night, you mean? You gave the interview to the press conference?

So it is very simple. I am not asking them anything. In the press conference I said to them that now the things. They have deceived four times. It is enough one can take. There is a limit. Now I will give the interview only before the full press present.

So you had an agreement with them that you would meet with them? You could have your crew videotape the interview?

Yes. And that they had agreed.

Things are at rather an impasse as far as your interview?


The mass media have been full of allegations between you and Sheela. At present you’re embarked on a real war of words, you and Sheela. Who you think’s going to win.

Only truth wins. It is never a question between me or anybody else. Only truth wins.
If she has courage enough, she should come here. We can call the whole national media and she can discuss before the media with me. And that will expose the whole thing, where the truth is.

Similarly, you seem to be involved in a war of words with the attorney general of Oregon. I wonder who you think’s going to win that one.

The constitution of America is going to win. And it is in our favor. Attorney generals come and go. The constitution remains.

One of the things that’s being said in the press is that this entire thing that’s happened since last Saturday night is a carefully orchestrated scheme that’s going to culminate in you also leaving Oregon. Do you want to comment on that?

No, I am never going to leave unless they give me the green card.

And then you’re going to Germany, right?

Perhaps I may go for a world travel to meet my other sannyasins who are being corrupted by Sheela and meet the world media in different countries to make things put right. But I cannot leave without the green card.
If America wants me to leave America, green card first.

The Oregonian received information today that the police investigators who’ve been working here at the ranch for the last few days have been victims of bugging and wiretapping. Are you aware of that?

Then that must be the immigration department who has been bugging and taping everything, every phone from Rajneeshpuram going out or coming in. But my people - we have shown them every place.
Every wire has been taken out. Every bugging device has been given to them. Every machine which was taping phones has been delivered into their hands, and if they feel still it is going on, then they should look into it.
It must be INS or perhaps attorney general.
Perhaps they are worried that what is going on between the FBI and the police and between my commune.
Because their intention is clear. The intention is to use this situation to destroy the commune.
And Sheela is giving all those things in Europe without any foundation and without any evidence, and she is talking to the press again and again that, “I have immense information.” That means she is indicating to the attorney general and to the FBI that she is willing to be purchased, that she would like to be given immunity, then she can give all kind of information against the community.
And that is a possibility because they are not concerned about the crimes that she has committed. Their concern is more how they can destroy this commune from Oregon. So if she can give them information - and certainly she can give them information because she has done everything so she knows everything. And if you give her immunity she can indicate to any innocent sannyasin who knows nothing about it. And if you are intend to destroy the commune, this is the simplest way.
And politicians are so dirty-minded that they can do anything.
For example, in second world war Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin were enemies, but they became friends. They made a peace treaty which was amazing to everybody in the whole world, that Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin becoming friends is a miracle. And then even a greater miracle was to happen: when Adolf Hitler attacked Soviet Union, Josef Stalin became friends to America and Britain, to Roosevelt and Churchill.
America and Soviet Union has been enemies for decades: the only two permanent enemies in the whole world. But they became friends. Then the question of communism or capitalism did not matter. Only thing mattered was how to destroy Adolf Hitler.
So Sheela’s continuous emphasis in every interview that she has so much information to give but she cannot give it is an indication to the politicians here in Oregon, to FBI, that, “If you give us immunity, I can deliver you all the information.”
And certainly she can deliver all the information, because everything she has done or she has ordered to be done. And if she is immune then there is no problem. She can impose crimes upon innocent people without any difficulty.
And who cares that one man died or three persons were being poisoned or Dalles system was poisoned? Who cares about these small things? The big thing is how to destroy this commune, which has become a pain in the neck of all the politicians.
But it is not so easy.
I challenge Sheela if she has any guts, then come here and face me.

How would you characterize Sheela and the corporate leaders of Rajneeshpuram who left, and how would you characterize Hasya and the new corporate leaders at Rajneeshpuram? One word for each.

Sheela and the people who have left is a criminal gang. And the people who have taken their place are very loving, compassionate human beings. And they are going to change the whole quality of the commune. Okay?

Bill Graves,
The Bend Bulletin

Are you beginning to regret having invited the police in for this investigation?

I had invited them. We have been cooperating with them. We have been giving them every information that was available to us, to any sannyasin. But they have been taking advantage of it.
Rather than trying to find the criminals, they were trying to find few people in the commune who have committed crimes and to give them immunity and tell them that how many people they have to name for certain crimes.
It was overheard by a sannyasin that FBI people were discussing that at least five hundred sannyasins need to be imprisoned. Now this is strange. We are cooperating, we are giving you information, we are going you.taking you to every spot which has been bugged, but they are not interested in the criminals who have escaped.
The first step would have been to inform the German police, the Swiss police and the Interpol to prevent those twenty people from escaping, and bring them back here. They had enough solid proof.
Just the bugging was so much that one of the FBI persons said to the sannyasin who was showing them around that, “I cannot believe. These people have surpassed Nixon. Their bugging is far more sophisticated.” And he said that for one bugging there is five years jail. And anybody who has done this work will need at least one thousand years jail.
But rather than preventing those criminals, they were trying to do something else. Their strategy has been to take the cooperation to find the crimes and to find few people who had done little bits - according to the gang, according to their orders - and make them immune and force them to take names of innocent people, particularly of those without whom the commune will be completely crippled.
If you take five hundred important people - doctors, engineers, electricians, drivers, the restaurant people - if you take five hundred people who are essential for the life of the commune, you will cripple it. You will destroy it.

So how are you recommending your disciples respond to this?

Now we are not going to support. I had asked them - in fact, they should have asked me first. They should have taken my interview first. They did not ask. That is strange, because I was the one to invite them here and they would not ask for my interview.
Then I asked them that, “I want to give my interview.” Four times they gave the appointment, and four times they canceled it.
Then yesterday I had to call a press conference. I told them that, “This is the last time.” Yesterday two o’clock was their appointment, and I said, “If you cancel it again, that means something is cooking, that you want to avoid me. Perhaps you are waiting for somebody who can indicate that I am the criminal. So I am going to call a press conference tonight.”
And I called the press conference. I have explained to them all the crimes that Sheela and her group has committed here. And I have told them that, “Now onwards we will not be supportive. We will not cooperate. We will not be your hosts any more. You can pack your luggage and get out of this place.”

What is your response to governor Vic Atiyeh’s criticism of your not cooperating today?

I have not heard.

He said that his patience was growing thin with your refusal to cooperate.

His patience! He knows what patience means? For four days we have been cooperating and for four days they have been canceling my interview. My patience is ruined or his patience is ruined?
He does not know the meaning of patience. Just by being a governor does not mean that he is understanding enough of psychology language.
We have invited him for many times. He goes on speaking against us without coming here. Is he a coward or what?
When we invite you and we want you to be acquainted with the commune, and then say whatever you want to say, we have no objection about it. If it is wrong we can confute it. But without coming here, saying things based on gossips will prove you simply an idiot.
That’s what has happened in the case of attorney general. We had made few tents. They were not ordinary tents, they were winterized tents so we can use them in all the seasons. But they were not permanent structures. Permanent structures need permission. Tents don’t need.
And because they were different from ordinary tents - as if there cannot be different kind of tents - he simply without coming here. We asked him to come and see. If he feels they are permanent structures, then it is up to his decision whatever he wants to do.
He imposed a fine of $1.4 million. We went to the court, and I told my people that, “Take a tent there in the court. Put up the tent in the court. Within ten minutes the tent is ready. Ask the judge to see, and then within ten minutes unfold it. Put it in a bag. And ask the judge, ‘Can a permanent structure be constructed in ten minutes and folded back in ten minutes?”‘
I told them that there is no need for any argument. Simply show it.
And the judge laughed. And he simply said, “There is no case. These are tents.”
And the attorney general is absolutely wrong in giving that kind of punishment. And that man seems to have no shame. Otherwise he would have jumped into the ocean and gone forever.
The same is the situation of the governor. He should come here and he should know what patience is.
For four years they have not given a single reason why my green card has not been given. Does it take four years to decide?

Is there a danger that these statements that Sheela’s been making in the Stern magazine will cause any damage to your image within the Rajneeshee movement around the world?

No, because I don’t care about my image. Never cared. I am not a politician who cares about his image, because my image does not depend on anybody’s voting.
I don’t care at all about any image. My image is within me. Nobody can distort it.

Sheela said that she was draining community resources to keep you supplied with jeweled watches and Rolls Royces. Did you ever tell Sheela that you would die if you did not get a $2.5 million diamond watch or that you would commit suicide if you did not get another Rolls Royce?

She is simply going insane. In the first place, what do you think of this watch? How many million dollars it will be? This is the cheapest watch you can find anywhere in the world. It is made by my own sannyasins, and these are not diamonds. These are pure stones, authentic sincere stones. And it costs nothing.
But it is invaluable. Even for one billion dollars I will not sell it. It is made with such love that it cannot be sold.
And I am using mostly the watches that are made by my own sannyasins with stones, not diamonds. But what can I do if people don’t have the understanding and the eye to make the distinction between stones and diamonds? That is their fault. That is not my fault, that is not the fault of the stones. People should learn a little more about stones and about diamonds.
And ask Sheela that: for four years I was silent, I was not going even out of my room. I was living in isolation. Why she continued to bring those million-dollar watches she is talking about? For four years continuously it was right. And when I started speaking it became wrong. Was it a kind of bribe that I should remain silent and should not speak?
Who was bringing those watches? She was the one who was bringing those watches. And I don’t know how much they cost, and I don’t know from whose donation they have been purchased. I don’t possess them either. They are possessed by a trust. They are only given to me for use.
I don’t use the watch more than five hours - two and half hours in the morning in the lecture, two and half hours in the evening in the interview.
And do you think a certain simple law of diminishing returns.? If you get one Rolls Royce, you are immensely happy. I have ninety. What difference does it make to me that in the garage there are ninety-one? The number of that one will come in three months time only for one day for ninety minutes. What does it matter to me? For that I will commit suicide?
I have never gone to the garage. I have never looked into the garage, how many cars are there, what kind of cars are there. And that too belongs to a trust.
I had declared that all those cars should be given to the commune. They are basically commune property. I don’t own anything. For thirty years I have not owned a single cent. I have not touched even money for twenty years. I have been four years in America; I have not seen even how a dollar bill looks like. And I don’t have any hope of seeing it in this life. There is no reason.
I had told the president of the trust that, “Distribute all those cars and distribute all those watches. I don’t need.” But they don’t want. And they are not my possessions. They say they are sacred because I have used them, and they will keep them as sacred memorial. They are not willing to give them.
And they say already commune has more than enough cars, so what is the need? One hundred buses, four airplanes and five hundred cars - and nowhere to go.
So neither they want to give the cars nor the commune is ready to receive them. They say, “Unnecessary burden. Why we should be burdened? Because Rolls Royces are just white elephants. Ninety white elephants, why they should be put? You take care, Your trust should take care. It is the trouble You have created.”
So neither the commune is ready to take them nor they are ready to give it to them. And I am nobody. I am not even commune’s member nor I am the owner of the Rolls Royces. And do you think I would commit suicide for a car of which I am not going even a owner? And that too after ninety cars are there waiting for me. Ninety-one will not make any difference. Economics has the law.the law of diminishing returns. The more you have, the less meaning.
It was Sheela, and there is her statement in many television shows in which she has told that, “We want three hundred sixty-five Rolls Royces for Osho.” So now she is simply swallowing her own saliva that she has spit.
Tell her to be a little sane.

You have said that what happens in this commune is really none of no concern to you, that you’re not a Rajneeshee. But in the last week and a half, you seem to have expressed a lot of concern about what’s going on here. I’m just wondering if you’re thinking about taking a more active role in this community or becoming a Rajneeshee.

No. No. What I have said is, I have never been a Rajneeshee but in these three and half years when I was silent Sheela created this idea of sannyasins being Rajneeshee. So I have taken it back. I have told that not only I am not a Rajneeshee, nobody is a Rajneeshee, because that is again going into the same stupidity as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, communism.
While I was in silence she has written a book: Rajneeshism. Now I don’t read. For five years I have not read anything. But I was going to tell my publisher that, “Look into that book and withdraw it from publication, because there is no Rajneeshism. This is all absurd.” That was her creation.

About a month ago you said of Sheela, “I have been sharpening her like a sword. I told her to go out and cut as many heads as possible.” You were defending her then, and the abrasive way that she represented this movement to the outside world. Have you changed your position? And were you using her.?

No, I have not changed anything. At that time, whatever she was doing was right. As far as the outside world was concerned she needed to be more assertive, and I was putting more and more emphasis that she should not be defensive in any way.
A small commune cannot live, cannot survive, if it takes a defensive attitude. And truth is never defensive, it is always assertive.
So it is not a question of defending Sheela. The same I will say to Hasya, that, “Be assertive.”
You become defensive only when you are afraid and you are not certain whether what you are saying is right or wrong. When you are clear, then you are a sword. And the sword has to be so fine that it can cut as many heads as possible - I mean metaphorically. I don’t mean that you have to go and cut people’s heads. But intellectually you have to do it.
I had been doing my whole life. I am not a defensive person. I never take the position of defense. That is only for cowards. My position is always of assertion, because I am absolutely certain of what I am saying. My whole being is in it.

I’ve heard that you have called yourself a great con man. How Sheela was able to con you without your knowing.

She has not conned me. She has conned herself. She has missed an opportunity that she may not get for many lives.
What she was when she has come to me? Just a waitress in a hotel. I made her almost a queen, a celebrity. But it was my work. I will destroy it immediately.
If I can make, I can unmake too. And you will see that within few months there will be no Sheela. She will be again in a hotel, a waitress. That’s all she is capable of.

Did the Share-A -Home program and Sheela’s growing addiction to power have anything to do with your ending your period of silence? Was there any relationship between Sheela’s growing power and celebrity and your coming out of silence and beginning to speak again?

No, it has nothing to do with that. My silence started in India. I came America in silence. And the Share-Home program was long before when I started speaking again.
I started speaking again because my physician was poisoned twice, thrice. My caretaker was poisoned once. And then it became necessary for me that something inhuman is going on.
It was my physician’s attempt of Sheela to kill him with a slow poisoning so that death appears almost like natural. But the third time she poisoned him was so clear that there is a witness who saw the woman, because it was in a meeting, in a discourse, morning discourse. Ten thousand sannyasins were there. And a woman sitting behind my physician simply pushed the needle into his body.
There are eyewitnesses.
He simply took over his robe and showed to many people, blood coming out and the point where the needle has been pushed in.
He was taken to the hospital. The doctors said that this is certainly poison, but it is a poison which is not detectable.
So we started looking. I asked our doctors to look into the poisonous literature: are there poisons which are not detectable? And they found that there is a category of poisons which are not detectable.
And when Sheela left, in her room we have found literature on poisons. And the same poison that our doctors were suspecting was underlined. In the whole literature, that was the only place they were.that was underlined.
And there were literature how to kill people, how to make bombs. Now what this literature has to do with Sheela? Poison, bombs, killing. And then we started looking into everything, and we found she had bugged the whole hotel. She has bugged my own room. She has bugged Hasya’s whole house - six rooms. She has bugged my caretaker’s room. She has bugged every place she was suspecting that perhaps someday somebody may say something against her.
FBI people accepted themselves that the bugging devices that were used are immensely sophisticated in comparison to what Nixon had done.

Was there an internal power struggle going on here prior to the day Sheela left?

No, there was no struggle at all.

Do you know anything about a faction that press reports have called the Beverly Hills money crowd here in the commune? They say that Hasya and John and David and Kavisha and Anuradha - the president of the commune - are part of a close-knit group that ran a mansion in Hollywood for the movement for a while. Is this a close-knit group that’s taken power?

There is no struggle. There was no struggle before. But she was afraid of these people. She was afraid of all intelligent people. She got rid of all intelligent people before. The vice chancellor of the university left. The chancellor of the university left. Many therapists left. Anybody who had some intelligence better than hers was dangerous.
That is the political working of the mind: never allow anybody who is more intelligent than you.
I am reminded of Machiavelli. He has written the best treatise for politicians. And all the princes of Europe were his disciples. When they became kings, he asked everybody to make him their prime minister. But nobody was ready. He was surprised. He said, “You are my disciples.”
They said, “That’s why we are refusing. You are too cunning. You are too intelligent. We cannot have you as our prime minister, because if you are prime minister we are gone. It won’t take much time for you to take over the kingdom.”
So every politician tries. So she has finished. Many sannyasins had to go away. Now I am receiving telegrams, telephones, that, “We are coming back. We had left because of Sheela. Now she has left; we are coming back.”
This group - Hasya and her group from Beverly Hills - just came few months before. And they had come here to make a film. Hasya and her husband had made one of the best films in AmericGodfather. She wanted to make a film on me and the movement and the ideology. So I said, “That’s perfectly good.”
So she came with her group to write the script, to prepare the background. And because I allowed them, Sheela was afraid. The whole group was more intelligent than her. The whole group was more creative than her, more educated than her.
She is not educated. She has no university degree.
So she became very much afraid of the group. But there was no power struggle from the side of Hasya. They were simply working on the film.

But their house was bugged and they were given every kind of harassment, humiliation, by all Sheela’s group. Whatever they could do. They wanted somehow that they should leave.
It had happened before, too. Another group of my sannyasins who make films in Hollywood - both husband and wife are my sannyasins - they had come three years before. And I said, “It is perfectly okay. You make the film.”
They prepared the script, they worked hard for months, and then Sheela came to me that, “This film will become a worldwide success, so we cannot just give them like that. They have to pay ten million dollars to the Foundation.”
I said, “This is outrageous. Those two sannyasins are not rich. They certainly make films. They are comfortably rich, but they cannot pay ten millions in advance. You can ask, ‘Five percent in your profit will be Foundation’s.’ That is reasonable, in the profit. But before the film is made you ask ten millions. It is irrational.”
But in spite of that she wrote to them that, “You will have to give ten million dollars in advance, otherwise you cannot make the film.” So those poor people had to drop the idea. They wrote a very sad letter to me that, “We were so excited in making it, but from where we can give ten million dollars in advance?”
This time I told her that, “Don’t talk of advance at all. These people are our sannyasins and whatever profit will be out of the film will belong to the Foundation. So you don’t bother.”
Because I favored them and made it clear in front of them, she became more afraid that now a group has come who can replace her any moment.
There was no idea in anybody’s mind, but sometimes it happens what you fear of, just because of fear you manage to happen it.
She escaped. Naturally, that was the best group to replace her. And they replaced her.

How has power been diffused with this change? How are you going to assure that this doesn’t ever happen again?

It cannot happen. For thirty years I have been speaking, there has been a commune. If I am there, available to people, nobody can exploit them.
The situation was simple. Because I was not available and she was my sole representative. And she was using my name in everything, that, “This is from Osho.” And there was no way for sannyasins to know whether it is from me or not, because any information has to come through her and any information they get they will get from her.
And she was not bringing all the information. Now I am becoming aware. So many things were happening. She was not bringing the information. And so many things that I have said, she has not informed the people about that.

Is there a danger for a person in your position of getting in a cocoon, isolated from the world?

No. I don’t have any power. I don’t hold any position. The commune has several corporations, so power is divided. Every corporation has its own work field*. I don’t take any active part.
My only active part is to answer my sannyasins’ questions about their personal growth, about their problems, about the commune if they feel there is some difficulty.
If I am available then there is no question. And this time I will do everything.
For example, I am withdrawing the book, Rajneeshism. It is not my book. Sheela managed to compile it according to her ideas. She has taken my sentences from other books, but the idea and the whole pattern is like a catechism of a Catholic.
I am withdrawing it.
I have dropped the word Rajneeshee. Nobody is a Rajneeshee. There is no religion here. People are trying to experience themselves; this is a simple science, not religion - and absolutely individual. No question of collectivity.
It is the collectivity which is dangerous.
And soon I am going to withdraw red clothes so there will be no distinction between the sannyasins and the non-sannyasins. I am going to withdraw the mala.
Before I leave my body I will withdraw every possibility that any kind of fascist thing can happen.

So are you saying that this is not a religion?

This is only an experiment in religiousness. And there is a total difference between two.
A religion is a fixed creed. A religiousness is a quality. A religiousness does not make you Christian, Hindu, Mohammedan, but it makes you a different human being. It gives you different qualities: of love, compassion, gratitude. It is a religiousness.
But it is difficult to explain to bureaucracy. With INS it was so difficult to explain to them. Now, it is a very subtle point. To me, in existence there are no nouns, no pronouns - only verbs.

When are you going to allow the sannyasins to stop wearing red and their malas, and why do they wear them in the first place?

There was need. There was immense need in the first place to give them a certain identity, to give them certain courage, to give them certain challenge in the society so they become more integrated.
Soon I will withdraw everything that can be destructive in my absence.

Are you expecting to leave soon?

No, not soon.

The people who live in Rajneesh or Antelope have expressed a lot of interest in your spirit of cooperation or reconciliation. But they say that they need to see that town disincorporated, to believe you are sincere. How do you feel about that?

No. Why it should be destroyed as a city? What I am doing, I am giving it back its old name: Antelope. I am withdrawing the police force from Rajneeshpuram which we have lent to Antelope. We are ready to vacate Antelope.
The Antelope people should purchase their properties back or - the whole Oregon was showing so much love and was so much favorable to them - now this is the time to show it. Purchase the properties, and we are ready to vacate it. And then if you want to destroy the city, it is up to you. It is your city, we have nothing to do with it.

Most people say there’s no way they can buy that two million dollars worth of housing you have there.

If they cannot buy, then they can sell there. We can buy. Anyway, we are ready. This is cooperation.
If they cannot buy, then they should sell. That they can do. Or they also, they cannot do. They want without paying anything the whole land and all the houses and we should vacate and give them as donation?

Have you heard of any evidence that suggests that any of this wiretapping or these other crimes occurred in Antelope?

No. Antelope has nothing to do with it.

Do you believe you are the reincarnation of a mystic who lived seven hundred years ago?

I don’t believe it. I know it.

How do you know that?

Anybody can know it. Just there are few processes to go through.

I’ve heard that you were, as a boy, fascinated with death. Why did death hold so much charm for you?

It should be, because it is the only certain thing in the whole life. Everything is uncertain, only death is certain. It should be the central focus of every intelligent person.
My understanding is, it is death which has created all the religions. Otherwise there would have been no religion.

Who do you go to for advice?

I don’t need.

Do you ever get together with some of your followers and just sit around and have some wine and talk?

No. I don’t have time.

How do you spend your days?

I am completely so busy without business.
Six o’clock I wake up. Then two hours in my swimming pool and bathroom, which I love and I have always loved. Then my breakfast, and I go to my morning discourse.
Eleven I return and take my lunch and go to bed for two hours. At two o’clock I go for a drive into the hills. At four-thirty I go again to my bathroom and the swimming pool for two hours. Then I take my supper, and after that supper any interviews, which continue up to nine or nine-thirty.
Then I have to see my secretary for any work concerning outside communes in the world or here: one hour or sometimes two hours.
And at twelve I go to sleep again.
It is a simple life and the same every day.

Why did you stop reading in 1980 and how do you stay informed on world events? I’ve heard that you enjoy movies. Is that true?

Once in a while, because I don’t read any more. Otherwise I was perhaps the most educated man in the whole world. My own personal library was one hundred fifty thousand volumes, of immense value, and I was reading continuously.
But then I got my own truth and all those books started seeming rubbish. Slowly slowly they became meaningless. Once in a while one book may turn out to have some significance, but five years before I stopped it. It was too much.
You read one hundred books and one book sometimes turns out to be of any meaning. And that too is not going to increase my consciousness, my being.
So for five years I have not read anything - no newspaper, no radio, no television. Once in a while if my sannyasins see a film which they feel has something significant, then I see it. But very rarely.
For example, Dostoyevsky’s Brothers Karamazov, when it became a film then I saw it because I consider that book to be far more valuable than holy Bible. It is so immensely rich with insights.
So it happens once in a while that they bring something if they feel that it may interest me. Then I see it. But rarely.
I don’t have time, either. I cannot cut my bathroom time, I cannot cut my drive time, I cannot cut from anywhere. Everything is absolutely set up minute to minute, so it is very difficult. Even to see a film I have to see it in two, three days, because half hour here, half hour there, but.

Do you ever feel like getting into your Rolls Royce and just cruising out across the countryside on your own?

Yes. I have my own road.

Have you ever thought about just leaving the commune altogether and just going down to California or somewhere.?

No. Not California. Never. That is the last place I am going to. Hell I can go but not California.

Who do you admire in this country?

I don’t admire anybody in this country.

Is there anybody in the world that you have great admiration for?

I admired one man, J. Krishnamurti. One man I used to admire who is dead was P. D. Ouspensky, an Russian who was living in London, a mathematician. I admired another man, George Gurdjieff, who was a Caucasian living in France, died in ‘50.
Other then these three men, there was one man from Babylon, Michel Naimy, whom I had admired because of his book, The Book of Mirdad, has been my the most loved book. He shows tremendous insight, which only a mystic is capable of.
But very few people - only one is alive: J. Krishnamurti.
I admire him but that does not mean that I agree with him. I criticize him as much as possible. He criticizes me as much as possible. So there is only one agreement between us, that we disagree. But I admire the man just the way he admires me.

What does it mean to be enlightened? Do you lose some of your normal human emotions?

You certainly lose many things. And you gain only one thing. It is a very losing business.
You gain yourself, and everything else is lost: anger, greed, jealousy - all is lost. But it is not a loss because you come to realize the ultimate ecstasy beyond which there is nothing, only bliss.

How is your health?


I’ve heard a lot of your discourses, themes of individuality, finding your own path, finding God in nature, capitalism. And these are themes that are as American as Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Henry Thoreau. And my question is, how did an Indian guru become so American, and does this explain why so many Americans have followed you?

In the first place, I am not a guru. That is a dirty word. Because all gurus have been just exploiting people in the name of spirituality. I don’t belong to that gang.
And I am not an Indian in the sense that I don’t believe in nationalities. I simply believe that the whole earth is one.
So Walt Whitman I love as much as I love Rabindranath Tagore.
It doesn’t matter that Rabindranath Tagore is Indian and Walt Whitman is American. Both have something which transcends these stupid things: American, Indian, Christian, Hindu. Both have great flights into the unknown and immense power to express that which is almost inexpressible.
Walt Whitman is one of my loved ones. We have here a Walt Whitman Grove.
We also have something in the name of Emerson, something in the name of Henry Thoreau, something in the name of Abraham Lincoln. Anybody who has contributed in any way to human progress, to human growth, I have immense respect for it. It does not matter what race, what religion, what country he belonged.

In The Goose Is Out, your book, you say, “And to disappear into the whole is the only thing of any worth.”
You are a man with a very big ego. I see your picture everywhere, around all your sannyasins’ neck. And you certainly haven’t disappeared. Probably most people in the United States know who you are. So how do you explain this apparent contradiction?

There is no contradiction.
You are right. I have a very big ego, as big as the whole universe. That’s how I have disappeared.
Soon you will see my pictures on all the stars.

How could one follow your teaching in any case and find his own path, and yet come here and live in a commune and walk this collective path? That again to me seems like a contradiction.

There is no contradiction, because there is no collective path here. Everybody is doing his own thing.
Yes, they are living together for the simple reason because they are all doing their own things and nobody is interfering with them. That is the point that joins them into a commune.
In the outside world they can do their thing. Everybody is poking his nose, interfering in every way.
Here nobody interferes into anybody’s life, nobody condemns you, nobody makes you holier than others. There is no comparison. Everybody simply accepts you as you are. It is your business what kind of person you want to be. It is nobody else’ business to give you advice.
That is the only thing in the world outside. Everybody gives it and nobody takes it.
Here nobody gives it. The question of taking does not arise.

Do you believe that human consciousness survives death? Is there a soul?

I don’t believe in anything. I know.
It survives.
Only the body dies, not your consciousness. But don’t take my word. Don’t believe in me. You have to experiment on your own.

What role does meditation play in this movement?

That is the basis of this whole movement, the essential of my whole way of life. And it simply means becoming a witness - of everything - on three layers. Becoming a witness of all the activities of your body. Walking, you should walk consciously.
I can move this hand consciously. I can move this hand mechanically, without knowing. And you can see the difference between the two, when you move it mechanically and when you move it consciously.
When you move it consciously there is no tension, there is a grace, a beauty, a joy.
So every act of the body has to be witnessed.
When you become very accustomed of witnessing your body and seeing it as separate, as if somebody else is walking on the road and you are just seeing, sitting on a hill, then the second step: start watching your mind.
Look at the thoughts without any evaluation, without any judgment, as if you are not concerned: a traffic passing by and you are standing by the side of the road.
And a miracle happens. As you become more and more clearly a witness, thoughts start disappearing. Ninety percent a witness, ten percent thoughts. Hundred percent a witness, zero thoughts. And that is the point when you can move to the third step: now witness your feelings, moods, which are more subtle.
And when you become a witness of your moods - that is, your heart - the fourth step happens on its own accord. You don’t have to take it. These three steps you take it; fourth is the reward.
When the third is complete, suddenly one day you find a quantum leap in your consciousness. Everything has disappeared; you are conscious only of consciousness. You are aware only of awareness.
And there is absolute silence. But that silence is not empty. It is full of light and full of bliss and full of fragrance. And this is what I call enlightenment.
Meditation is the way; enlightenment is the success, the achievement.

Have any of your disciples become enlightened? Have they reached that step yet?

Yes, many.

I know that you developed dynamic meditation. I’m just curious if you’ve ever tried it?

I have tried everything.

How does your teachings compare with those of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation?

That is neither transcendental nor meditation. It is just an ordinary chanting which has been done in all the religions down the ages. You use any word or any mantra and you chant it inside, and chant it fast, and fast, and faster - so fast that there is no gap for mind to function, so fast that it creates a state of auto-hypnosis.
It is a concentration. You are chanting Ave Maria, Ave Maria, Ave Maria and you go on faster and faster. You are concentrated on one word. The mind has no space left for any other thought. And this Ave Maria continuously - and it does not matter what. You can chant your own name. The result will be the same. You will become in a certain state of deliberate sleep. That is what is hypnosis.
It is pleasant. It is healthy. But it is not meditation. It is good. It does no harm. But it is just an exercise of the mind. You will wake up after twenty minutes, ten minutes, fresher, feeling better, healthier.
So if you are doing it for these reasons, good. But it is not meditation.

In Come Follow Me you say that Christ is the very principle of religion, in Christ all the aspirations of humanity are fulfilled. But last month you called Christ a crackpot. You seem to have changed your view of him.

I think for that you come again, because then we can talk only on Jesus Christ and it will be good. It will be more justified. Then I can say exactly what I had said before and why, and what I am saying now and why.

The Soviets have said, at least in one article I read, that you work for the CIA and the White House. And I’m just curious how your movement functions behind the iron curtain. And whether there’s anything going on in this commune or in other parts of the world to get the message into communist countries.

Yes, there is my people and they are being harassed, and CBI thinks that I am functioning with the Russian KGB. And KGB thinks I am functioning according to CBI. That is great!
I would love to get from both something, but nobody is giving anything - except trouble.

They are torturing my people there. Twenty people they have found up to now only, but they are interrogating, harassing. They have taken their books, their tapes, their videos. And they are harassing them to tell them about other people: who are the other people, where they are. But they are not saying anything.
But there are many people.

This is in the.Is this in the Soviet Union?

In the Soviet Union there are people. In every communist country there are people. In East Germany there are many sannyasins. Even they wanted to make a commune. I had to stop them. I said, “It is becoming difficult even in democratic America. You don’t create unnecessary trouble for sannyasins. Just remain underground.”

How many sannyasins do you have in the world now?

Near about one million.

Is the movement growing?

It is growing. Certainly.

You have said in the past that you would like to build a city of one hundred thousand sannyasins here.

Certainly. I would like and I can.

Do you believe the state will ever allow you to do that?

Still I have the idea. Once I have finished with this litigation, the city is going to grow. This land is three times of New York. There is no problem. We can create enough water reservoirs, we can create enough food, we can make all the hills lush green. We can make it such a beautiful city that Oregon will be proud of it.
But those fools are trying to stop everything. But fools are fools. Nothing can be done about it.

So you’re confident that this city will endure all of this and flourish?

It is going to.

Was it your decision to come to the United States in the first place back in 1981?

No. I was not going to stay here. But my health improved and now my people don’t want my health to be destroyed again back in India. They don’t want me to go.
And moreover, now it has become a challenge. If they had given me green card early, in the very beginning, perhaps I would have gone. But now it is difficult.

Is there room in this community for non-sannyasins or others from the outside to live or invest here?

Yes. Soon we will create possibilities. But they are preventing everything. They don’t allow us to sell the land. We wanted to make plots, create facilities to sell those lands. But they don’t allow anything because the city is illegal. So we cannot do anything unless we are legal.
We would like, because there are so many sympathizers, so many lovers, so many friends, who are not sannyasins but who would like and want to live here. And I would like all of them to be here. It looks so monotonous, just sannyasins. And my people are fed up with just sannyasins. They want new women, new men. Whosoever has courage can come.

Have you any interest in dialogue with other religious leaders?


In The Goose Is Out you write, quote, “Remember the fundamental law of all revolution. When the revolution comes, things will be different - not better, just different.” If you look at what’s happened here in this community in the last week as a revolution, are things better or different?

They are better.

They’re better. Why?

Because this was not a revolution. This was evolution. And evolution always makes things better. Revolution only changes things, never makes them better.

Isn’t the wisdom you express essentially that that western civilization has sort of sprung from: that of Socrates, his basic dictum, “know yourself” or “know thyself”? Isn’t that.?

Yes, certainly. I agree with Socrates about that. Okay?

Thank you.

Great. I had to agree with Socrates.

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