The Last Testament Vol 2 28

TwentyEighth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 2 by Osho.
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Metro Media,
Los Angeles, CA

Hasya: [inaudible]…Mary Eckenburg [?] from KT-TV…

Glad to meet you.
Good evening. What a nice way to begin an interview.
We heard a number of things you said this evening, so I will try not to go over the same material again. This is for a television report, and unfortunately television reports are short. So if you will help me by making your answers as short as possible, I would appreciate it. Thank…
Thank you.
…you – Within reason.
Serious question: You knew Sheela for a long time.
Non-serious answer: Not very long, and not very much.
How was she able to fool you, do you think?
Just accidental.
An accident?
Life is accidental. We are talking just an accident, nothing predestined. Somebody else may have been in your place taking the interview, so just by chance. Her…
So she was just by chance, do you think?
Just by chance. Everybody is by chance. There are only two ways to understand life: either everything is determined, then freedom disappears, then you are just puppets, machines; the other way is that everything is accidental, then everything is free and you are not a puppet, you have an individuality.
And I respect individuality, I respect freedom. In a democratic world, determinism has no place. Otherwise, Adolf Hitler is simply doing what is determined, killing ten million people; he’s not responsible. Responsibility is possible only if life is accidental.
So everything is accidental, and it is a great excitement because it is unpredictable, too.
We've seen that.
Do you think your life personally was in danger here?
It is always in danger, everybody’s life everywhere, because life is between two points, between birth and death. One point has happened, the second is bound to happen. So how it happens does not matter; and where it happens, who cares!
So my whole insistence is to live in this moment and live totally, because the next moment may never come.
Do you believe these things happened, though – the deception of you and others – for a reason? Why?
No reason.
None. Just human nature, just lust for power.
A power struggle?
How can a power struggle occur in a religious setting like this?
Every religion is a lust for power. You may call it spiritual power, you may call it divine power; it does not matter. But every place, wherever human beings are, unless they are all unconditioned – which is very difficult and rare… A conditioned mind is trained for ambition, for power, to reach higher and higher, to climb to the very peak. So whenever there is a chance, your mind starts climbing the ladder.
I was in silence for three and a half years, so it was good opportunity for Sheela. I was completely absent to the commune. I was living in isolation, in silence; she alone was my communication with the commune. Whatever she informed me of, that was all I knew. What was going on in reality I came to know only when I started speaking and people started informing me.
So none of this you were aware of?
I was not aware – when it was happening, I was not aware.
Only later, obviously, when people told you?
Just within the last two days I have become…not even ‘later’. And as I became aware, I wanted to become available to the world media so that everybody else becomes aware of it so at least it does not happen in my communes anywhere else. I have hundreds of communes around the earth; one million sannyasins are involved with me.
Fifty-five million dollars in debt you mentioned.
How do you arrive at that figure?
Just now I have been told. I never go to the office, I never have seen where the office is. It’s…
Perhaps now you'll learn where the office is.
No, that is not my style of life. I don’t care about fifty-five million or five hundred million. I live my life in my own way. Now it is the responsibility of the people of the office, the finance department, to look after things more carefully.
Sheela called the people of Oregon bigots. Do you agree with her?
Everybody in this world is a bigot, and I don’t think Oregon is not part of this world. Bigot simply means that you are a Christian, you are a Hindu, you are a Mohammedan, you are a communist, you are belonging to this ideology or that ideology. You have already come to a conclusion, and you look at every new thing through the curtain of your conclusion; that is to be a bigot. It is very difficult to find a man who is not a bigot.
I am not a bigot because I have no ideology, no principles. I’m an agnostic, just a seeker, a searcher.
So Oregon is not in any way special in being bigots. It is just the characteristic of all human beings around the world. So don’t take it seriously.
Do you plan to stay in Oregon?
I love it, and I’m going to be here and I’m going to make it as beautiful as possible and as little bigoted as possible.
There had been some reports that you own some property in other countries – Australia for example – and the possibility of you packing up and leaving and going to that country.
Not true? You talked about the constitution of the United States today.
Mm mmm.
The government of the state of Oregon says that Rajneeshpuram is not a legal city because of the conflict between church and state constitutionally. Do you intend to continue the fight to keep that city as an incorporated city?
We have to defend our American constitution, because we are constitutionally right, and the state of Oregon is not constitutionally right in calling us illegal city. We will fight up to the Supreme Court, and we know that we are going to win, because I understand the American constitution, its values, and whatever has been done to us is absolutely unconstitutional.
For example, the city was incorporated by the state. For two years we were a legal city. For two years the state government, the federal government, both were helping the city; and suddenly the legal city becomes illegal. Great magic!
So you will continue your legal fight?
We will fight because we have to defend American constitution. In my vision, the American constitution is the only hope for humanity; otherwise, all constitutions are just somehow or other fascist. This is the only constitution which is not fascist, and that’s why American politicians are continuously in difficulty – because they are fascist, and the constitution is not.
You talked about fascism, and you said that a fascist state had been created here on your own property. How will you change that now?
I have changed it – just like that!
What's different, though?
Simply because people are intelligent. My people are not retarded. I explained to them the point…what has been happening here. They saw the point – and Sheela escaped.
They simply…
They understood immediately that now she will be in trouble. And not only she escaped, her whole gang – even the mayor of the city, who was part of the gang – they all disappeared. And nothing was done. I simply explained to people that these things have been happening here just because you were not aware, alert, watching. Now you have to be more alert, more watchful. A democracy needs people to be always alert, because anybody who is in power is dangerous. Even if you put a saint in power, you will find a Nixon comes out of it.
I assume you're going to be your own spokesman from now on?
I am. And I had always been, and there was no difficulty. Just because I was not speaking for this three and a half years, so this fascist nightmare happened. Now I am not going to have anybody as a spokesman for me; I will be speaking for myself.
The immigration service had challenged your being in this country legally. Do you continue to tend…?
They are absolutely wrong – otherwise, what the hell are they doing? For four years they could have deported me. They don’t have the guts – just impotent! If I am wrong then what are they doing? I have applied on five counts, and there are only six bases for application to be a resident in America. I have applied on five; on the sixth I can apply any day. That is marriage. I am still unmarried – I can get married any moment! And I’m perfectly capable for all the other five, and I will fight for each up to the Supreme Court. All the INS people will be dead, I will be dead, but the case will not end!
I think we get the point.
Yes. [tape changes] Good, this is the exact right time.
We can only get so much on a tape so we have to change.
Okay? Wait a minute, because I have to hit this INS a little more.
They have to prove to me that I am not a religious man. I don’t think anybody in the whole world can prove to me that I am not a religious man. No court, no law, no government can prove that I am not a religious man. And if I’m not religious, then nobody else is religious today nor has there ever been anybody who is religious.
They have to prove that I am not a religious leader. And five thousand people are living with me who are enough proof. And I have one million sannyasins around the world. I have sannyasins underground in Soviet Union, in Yugoslavia, in China – and I am not a religious leader. Then who is a religious leader? They will have to prove.
I had come here for health reasons. I have a few allergies – perfume creates asthma attacks immediately. I need a dry and cold climate. Humidity creates asthmatic attacks for me. That’s why I had chosen this desert. For fifty years this desert has been for sale, nobody bothered about it; but I liked it because it was suitable for my health. And certainly it proved helpful – my asthma completely disappeared. But the disappearance simply means that I have to be completely alert about perfumes, dust, anything that can disturb me.
I had never come with the intention to stay here. I had a perfectly beautiful commune in India. It is still there, sannyasins are still living there. But feeling that my health is better here, I have changed my desire; I want to stay here. And I have every right to take care of my health, and any law that prevents me and wants me to be sick and ill is criminal.
I will fight with those people.
And finally, if they are bent on being fascist, then I can get as many women as they want…
I think you've made your position clear.

We have heard in Los Angeles reports that several people here have AIDS. Is that true, and if so what are you doing about it?
In Los Angeles, several people have AIDS; not here.
Two. And in L.A. every day one person dies from AIDS.
What are you doing about the problem here?
We are doing everything, and in L.A. you are doing nothing!
What are you doing here?
First, we have checked six thousand people completely. Have you checked. all the people in L.A? By not checking all the people, you are constantly creating the danger. And L.A. perhaps may have the most homosexuals of any city in the United States.
These two persons – one has got AIDS through a blood transfusion, he’s not a homosexual. The other is a woman; lesbians don’t get AIDS, so she has got it from some man. She is a heterosexual, she is also not a homosexual. So neither of the persons is the outcome of homosexuality.
Are they in isolation?
They are in isolation, and we have placed them in the most beautiful place we have, the most scenic; we have we have given them the best houses. They are allowed to come to the meetings, to the discourses, to the meditations; they just have been told not to be in physical contact in any way. And they understand, because we respect them and love them – they are victims – and they are immensely grateful, because nowhere else are people suffering from AIDS going to be respected and loved.
Four other sannyasins have come from other parts of America, because their families have closed their doors, their friends turned into enemies; even their wives and children will not have anything to do with them. Hospitals will not allow them. We have accepted them because they are in trouble. And it is not their fault.
Homosexuality is a religious disease. It has been born in the monasteries of all the religions, so if anybody is responsible it is Jesus, it is Buddha, it is Confucius and that kind of people – the whole lot is responsible, because they all insisted on celibacy. And to make celibacy possible they separated monks and nuns and they created the ground for lesbianism and homosexuality. And the pope should be immediately imprisoned, the shankaracharya of India should be immediately imprisoned, because they are still propagating celibacy; they are still creating homosexuals.
In my commune celibacy is a sin because it is against nature, and anybody pretending to be celibate is a hypocrite. It is impossible; biology does not allow it, unless you happen unfortunately to be impotent. Only impotent people can be saints. There is no question of celibacy. And there are so many beautiful woman – why should you…? It is out of necessity that people became homosexuals.
There are people in forests, in mountains, where they become even further degraded. They start sodomy, they start making love to animals, for the simple reason that neither a man nor a woman is available, so what…? It is intelligent. They have to find something. If one food is not available, they will find something else; it may not be so delicious, it may not be so nourishing, it may not be the [natural?] food, but somehow they have to manage.
In this commune there is no need for anybody to be homosexual.
Secondly, we have taken every precaution because AIDS can spread not only by sexual contact, it can spread by kissing a person. The saliva can carry the virus, or even a tear. You may wash, out of compassion, a person’s tears and you become a victim of AIDS.
So we have made people aware in what ways a person can be infected without his knowing it. You are eating In a restaurant; you don’t know whether the spoons and other things have been sterilized after somebody else has used them. Here, in our restaurant, the hands of every person who comes to eat are sprayed with alcohol; everything, after he uses it, is being sterilized. Even in a telephone booth…if somebody phones, immediately the telephone is cleaned with alcohol, because you may leave your saliva on the telephone and just a little saliva may be enough to carry the virus.
Now many things have to be made criminal, but governments are so idiotic… In Texas the government has made homosexuality illegal. Now, this is something so stupid that perhaps it can happen only in Texas.
Let me return for a moment, if I may…
No, just wait. They should make things that prevent the spread of AIDS compulsory. For example, everybody should use condoms; while making love everybody should use gloves; kissing should be made illegal, criminal, and people should be taught substitute ways.
That’s what I have been doing here. I have told people that kissing is now killing; avoid it. If you respect the person you love, then kissing is not right. Eskimos rub noses rather than kissing; that is more hygienic, and more exciting too. You have been kissing so long; you must be stupid if you are not bored yet. And you go on kissing. The French people must be the most strange kind of people, exploring each other’s mouths with their tongues. It is just – makes one feel like vomiting, the very idea. But rubbing noses seems to be so clean. So I’m telling my people: rub noses as much as you can, there is no harm; but stop kissing, and use condoms.
I’m not against sex, because the people who have been against sex are the cause of AIDS. They repressed sex, and the repressed sex became homosexual, masturbatory…sodomy and all kinds of perversions. So everything natural should be accepted as it is. And use intelligence to prevent getting infected and so that you are not giving the other person any infection.
And if somebody wants to find new ways…because the old ways are becoming not right. For example, your wife may be having a child and you start sucking on her breast: it may create AIDS, because any liquid coming out of the body can carry the virus. So it is better – because a few small children have been found with AIDS, who know nothing of sex, who have never heard of sex, who cannot think of sex, and they have AIDS. That means they have come with AIDS from their very mother’s womb.
We have to learn other ways. For example, Vatsyayana in India – the greatest and most ancient sexologist in the world, five thousand years old – he says the ear lobes are the most erotic and most hygienic; just play with each other’s ear lobes. And they are very erotic – he is right, they are.
Change? Okay. But don’t change the subject. Okay?
Is that the end of that subject?
I have a couple of other things I want to talk about.
Mm mmm.
Do you have a concern that the incidents of the last couple of days that you've found out about could tarnish your work, your group, your organization, in such a way that it would be hard to get new recruits or converts – converts to your organization? Would this make it difficult for you to have new people come in?
I’m never interested in converting anybody, and I have never converted anybody in my whole life. I’m not a politician, and I am not interested in numbers. That is just politics. How many members you have – six hundred million Catholics, then the pope becomes powerful; no Catholics, then the Polack has to go to Poland!
I’m not interested at all in converting anybody. Those who are interested in my ideas come to me, and nothing makes any difference. In fact, because of Sheela and her group many people had left the commune with tears in their eyes. They never wanted to leave. They had come to live with me, but Sheela made it impossible for them to live here. They were intelligent people.
The chancellor of our university left, the vice-chancellor of our university left. Many therapists, who were the best therapists in the university, left because they could not be just puppets in the hands of a stupid woman. Sheela knows nothing, and she wanted to dominate everybody. So all those people will be coming back, and many more who were prevented because of Sheela and her fascist structure.
But I’m not concerned about it, whether anybody comes or not. I am just stating a fact, that many more will be coming. All over the world there is excitement; every day, the whole day, there are phone calls from all over the world that, “We are happy that Sheela is gone; can we come back?” And all the sannyasins here are so excited. When Sheela left, they danced on the streets as if a fascist regime had ended and they have attained independence.
So I don’t see any problem. More people will be coming. But I am not concerned with it, whether anyone comes or not.
The attorney general here in Oregon has said that you have a large stockpile of guns here on the property. Is that true, and if so why would you want to have those?
I don’t have any idea how many guns are here. It will take a little time for the new people who have come in power now to figure it out. But the attorney general is not right. We have a few guns which belong to the police force – and the police force belongs to the Oregon police. We have a few guns which belong to the security department of the commune, which are all registered. But perhaps Sheela may have had something which we have yet to discover.
Just today we have discovered that there is a tunnel underground, and the door goes out from Sheela’s room, and there are many rooms underneath. And for what was it? It cannot be for anything good. But there is no reason to hide it. Nobody knew about it – even I never knew about it, why it was made, for what purpose, what they wanted to hide.
And just today we have found in a bucket all the chemicals and things that are needed to make a bomb. We have literature about how to make bombs, and how and what poisons can be used in what quantities to prolong the death of a person so he does not die immediately and you are not caught.
So what was she doing? Perhaps there may be some weapons. Either she must have removed them or they must be here somewhere. If they are here, then we are going to deliver them to the government. Anything that is not legal we are going to deliver to the police. We have already started delivering things – anything. We don’t want any dirtiness here.
You are obviously making an attempt to heal the bad feeling of Oregon and perhaps some other places in the United States against your organization.
Do you think that you're going to be able to be successful in…
I don’t need to. We are perfectly happy. We don’t have any wounds to heal. They have wounds which we are trying to heal. We are not hostile to the Oregonians; the Oregonians are hostile. We don’t care. We are living on an island, totally sufficient. We have our food, we have our vegetables, we have our fruits, we have our milk products, and we have all kinds of experts. We don’t need anything. And we are not in any way worried. The whole of Oregon is worried, and that we do want – that they should not be worried. We are harmless.
Is that the message you're trying to get…?
We simply want to make it clear that they need not get disturbed nights. We are harmless people, and if they allow us we can be immensely useful to Oregon and its economy. We can make it a tourist place. In fact, in Pune our commune attracted thousands of people from the world, and the government of Maharashtra would not allow me to leave Pune and move the commune to another place in India. They forced the central government that I should not be allowed to purchase any quantity of land anywhere, because “If these people move, then our whole tourism will flop.” And that’s what happened. When we moved, their whole tourism simply flopped. We were bringing in so much money to them, and we had made such a beautiful place that every day thousands of people were coming just to see the place.
So there is no question of our wounds; we don’t have any wounds. The question is: we want Americans and Oregonians to understand that they can be completely unafraid of us, and there is no need for hostility. And what can we do? What harm can we do? It is such nonsense. Just a small group of five thousand people… If you become so freaked out with us, what will happen to you when the Soviet Union attacks you? I simply cannot believe it, that you become so afraid that the governor and the attorney general alert the army that they have to be able to reach Rajneeshpuram any time within three hours. Strange people. Just out of their minds, nuts.
So there is…
I am just trying to say that the people you were afraid of are gone, and the people who are absolutely harmless are here. Now, it is up to you to remain hostile or friendly. But we are friendly, and we will remain friendly even in spite of your hostility.
That does not mean that you can harm us. We will fight legally, and we will defeat you in every court. It is a strange fate that we, who are strangers to this country, are fighting for the constitution; and the people to whom this country belongs are prostituting the constitution, their own constitution. It is better to come here and understand us.
And there is no need to have any antagonism at all. It is simply a phobia they are suffering from. Perhaps our red clothes are creating a phobia in the bulls of Oregon…or I don’t know what is happening. If they are so afraid of red clothes, they should ask us – we can change the red clothes. But please don’t be so afraid; it makes us feel sad, because we are not harming anybody and we have no intention of harming anybody.
Just today I was talking to the president of the Foundation and to the new mayor, and I told them to, “Change the name of Antelope back to Antelope. This is not right.” And if the people of Antelope just want their properties back, we are ready to sell all the properties back and we can move our people up here. We don’t want their city and we don’t want to rule over them. But if they want not even to purchase the land, the houses, then naturally sannyasins are in the majority… There are not more than twelve, one dozen, old Antelope people and one hundred sannyasins. Then what can be done? Do you want that twelve people should rule over one hundred people?
So you would return the city if they will purchase it back?
Certainly – if they purchase it. We have purchased those houses from them, and we are ready to give them back at the same price. We have improved the properties, the prices have gone higher in four years, and we are still ready to give them at the same price we had purchased them at – because it is not a question of business, it is a question of the simple understanding that we don’t want to create any misunderstanding anywhere, and we don’t have any interest in American politics.
So either they can purchase them, or their sympathizers in Oregon can purchase them, or the Oregon government can purchase them. Something can be done.
Are you saying that you're no longer interested in participating in elections in Wasco County, for example?
No. We – I never participated in any election anywhere.
But your sannyasins did.
That is their business. I myself have never voted because I see only two idiots standing, and it is very difficult for me to decide who is a lesser idiot! So I simply dropped the idea of giving any votes to politicians.
But are you suggesting or thinking that your sannyasins will not be interested?
They may be…
This is just my individual thing. The sannyasins should decide for themselves. This is the whole difference that people don’t understand.
My sannyasins are not my followers, they are not my blind believers. They are just my friends. There is no essential difference between me and them, just a little bit of difference: perhaps my eyes are open and theirs are closed, but they can open them any moment. Otherwise I am going to throw ice-cold water in their eyes and make them open! That’s my work. But otherwise, there is no difference.
And they have to decide on their own about matters which I am not interested in at all.
And whatever they decide, it would be all right with you?
It is perfectly all right with me. It has always been all right with me.
But if I see that anything I feel needs my suggestion, just for them to think over it… For example, Antelope. This is my suggestion, that there is no need to change the name. I was in silence when they changed the name. It is ugly, just sick. So put it back.
And I am suggesting to them to make arrangements to sell the properties back and come here. We have so many houses empty, so come back here and we can create more houses.
And if the government is not behaving unconstitutionally and illegally, then there is no problem; the city is legal. Their own county, their own judges, have incorporated it. It is such a strange thing. The city’s plan is included in the Wasco County plan. Now, if the city is illegal the whole of Wasco County becomes illegal. Wasco County’s plan is part of Oregon’s plan. This city’s being illegal makes ultimately whole of America illegal. It is just a simple thing: Wasco County wanted not to keep the plan, but the court insisted that “Because you have incorporated the city you have to include the plan.”
Mm mmm. So you've made it clear that this is something that is important, that the city remains?
And that obviously you will take whatever steps legally are necessary to do that? You will take whatever steps are necessary legally to defend that?
We will do everything that is necessary and legally right, but we are not going to do anything illegal. In fact, we are in a very good position: we are in the legal position and the government is in the illegal position. We have a very good group of legal experts here, four hundred sannyasins – this is the biggest law firm in the whole world – who are continuously working, and they will fight. And finally I am going to stand up in the Supreme Court to save the American constitution. It cannot be allowed to be destroyed by petty politicians.
I want to thank you very much for talking with us tonight. It's been a pleasure, and we've learned a lot.
I am also happy, and I would like you to come again and again whenever you can find time.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Can you wait for just one moment? We need to get one shot here.
When is your next festival? Is it in the summertime you have festivals here? You mentioned it.
We have them four times in the year.
Four times a year.
But for me it is every day a festival. That’s why…
But isn't the biggest one – the biggest one is in the summer, isn't it?
Yes, it is the summer.
Have you traveled at all outside Oregon in the United States?
No, I was just in New Jersey for three months in the beginning when we were searching for the land. I had a very beautiful castle, one-hundred years old, and really a piece of art. We renovated it and made it completely new. We enjoyed the renovation of the old place, but by the time it was finished I had to come here and we started making this place.
Now we have rooms for five thousand sannyasins, with all modern facilities. The whole city is centrally air-conditioned. Perhaps this is the first commune which is completely air-conditioned, with all the facilities and comforts. I don’t believe in poverty; I believe just in super-comfort.
Do you have more building to do here? Do you have more buildings to build, more things to build here?
Yes, we will – just this case has to be finished. We cannot build anything now because the case is going on.
I see. Until that's finished…
Yes, it is under litigation. Once the litigation is over, we are going to make more. But not big buildings. We don’t want to make New York! We can make… Our place is three times bigger than New York, but we will make small chalets like in Switzerland on all the hills around. We want it to be a fairy land.
Thank you once again.

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