The Last Testament Vol 2 26

TwentySixth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 2 by Osho.
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Mark Hendricks, KOIN-TV, Channel 6, Portland (CBS Affiliated); Scott Miller, KGW-TV, Channel 8, Portland (NBC Affiliated); Roberta Ulrich, The Oregonian, Portland; Richard Wagner, CBS Network; Brian Ecker, Associated Press, Portland; Don Lattin, San Francisco Examiner; Pete King, Los Angeles Times; Steve Davis, KGO-TV, Channel 7, San Francisco; Bill Graves, Bend Bulletin; Grey Hoy, Seven Network, Australia; Swami Anand Videha, Italy, Les Zaitz; The Oregonian, Portland; Tom Stevenson, The Dalles Chronicle, The Dalles; Ma Mary Catherine, Osho Times; Gerald Erickson, The Dalles Weekly Reminder; Ted Viramonte, Madras Pioneer, Madras; Jackie Johnson, KBND Radio, Bend; Ma Viren, Espresso magazine, Panorama magazine and Eurepeo, Italy; Susan Barr, Q104, The Dalles; Bob Smith, KPRB Radio, Redmond; Alex King, KACI Radio, The Dalles; Fred Breuning, Newsday, New York.

[Introductions of new corporation officers have been omitted in this transcript.]

Isabel: Osho, I have told the press you will give a statement before they ask questions.

This is a moment of great rejoicing for my commune. I have been silent for three and a half years. The people who were in power took advantage of my silence. Because I was not in contact with the sannyasins, I was not aware what is being done to them.
As I started speaking again, a strange thing happened. Sheela became very sad. She was the president of the Rajneesh Foundation International and my personal secretary. Everybody in the commune was immensely ecstatic that I am speaking again except Sheela. This was strange. But just within few days it became clear what is the reason. While I was in isolation and in silence, she has become a celebrity. Through the news media she has become famous all over the world. She was representing me. Because I started speaking again, she found that her ego is shrinking, her image from the television screen is disappearing. It was bound to be so. If I am speaking myself, then there is no need for any mediator, any messenger, any representative.
She started going more and more to Australia, to India, to Europe, for any small excuse. Finally when she came back she wrote a letter to me that, “I don’t find the same excitement as I used to find before. But I am happy in Europe, happy in Japan, happy in Australia.” I replied to her that, “If you want to know the real reason of your happiness, I can come to Europe, to Australia, to Japan, wherever you want to check what is the real reason of your happiness. You have become addicted to be famous, and this is a far worse drug than any drug in existence.” And my sannyasins are not power-oriented. They are not political people. They are absolutely apolitical.
The world has suffered too much from politics. At least let few intelligent people decide to be dropouts from all dirty politics – and there is no other kind.
And then suddenly one day, just one day before, Sheela and all her gang simply left America, without even giving any cause why they are leaving. It was strange. And the moment they left, other sannyasins started informing things which are ugly, sad, but I have to say them to you because I don’t want to happen such things again in this commune or anywhere else. The moment their airplane left, immediately people started coming, saying so many things that they have done while I was in silence, that it seemed, listening to them, that instead of being a meditation commune they had turned it into a fascist concentration camp.
First they tried to kill three people, three people who were very close to me: my physician, my dentist and my caretaker. Because these were the three people who had the opportunity to meet me except Sheela. She wanted nobody to meet me, for the simple reason because they may inform me what is going on in the commune and what she is doing there. So finally they decided that these three people have to be given slow poison. Now there are witnesses who participated in their meetings, but they were afraid that if these people can kill my physician, they can kill anybody.
One woman who has reported that she was in the meeting and left in the middle, disgusted, feeling sick, that what kind of people are these? And the innocent sannyasins trusted them absolutely. But she herself became so much afraid that for six months she has not eaten the food in the commune’s restaurant. She was getting food from outside. And it really happened.
My caretaker once went into Jesus Grove where Sheela and her gang was living. She took a cup of tea and fell immediately sick. And the sickness was absolutely strange. She is healthy, young, there was no reason for it. Doctors could not find any reason why her heart is beating so fast. For three hours the heart was going just crazy. All their medicines were of not much help. But nobody thought about it, that she has taken a cup of tea and somebody could have poisoned her. But it happened to Devaraj, my physician. After few days he took a cup of coffee in Jesus Grove and came from there. Because he is a doctor, has the highest qualifications from England, he immediately suspected that he has been poisoned. He was entered into the medical clinic here, and there too he was injected poison again. And now many people have come, that Sheela was researching for some poison which can, in slow doses, kill a person in a long period of time, so nobody will suspect.
Third time, here in this meditation hall Devaraj was injected again. He immediately showed to people around him, pulled his pants and showed blood where the injection has been put. They delayed the ambulance to come here. All these informations have come within two days. The ambulance people have informed that they were told to delay as much as possible, then take him as slowly – because he refused to go to the medical center here. He was to be taken to Bend. So, “Take him slowly to the airport.” And the pilots were informed that there is no hurry: “Go as slow as possible.” And these were the poisons which are not detectable. He remained sick, became okay.
Hasya was his wife, was looking after him. The doctors in Bend told Hasya there was no disease, it seems to be simply a case of certain poisoning which cannot be detected. They said exactly the same has happened one year before to the attorney of Jefferson County, Sullivan. He was poisoned in the same way. Nobody knows, perhaps the same people who had poisoned Devaraj were poisoning Sullivan, because this commune’s land is divided half in Wasco County, half in Jefferson County, and it has much to do with the attorney of Jefferson County.
Many more things have surfaced. We are reporting to the police, to the government, because the whole bunch has immediately disappeared and they must have been planning for months. One information has come that at the election time last year, Sheela and her group of six, seven people tried to put chemicals in all the vehicles of police and officers in The Dalles, so the vehicles could not move. And they were successful. Not only that, what I cannot even conceive, they tried to poison the water system in The Dalles. They did not succeed in it, but they made every attempt.
Now, these people are absolutely criminals, inhuman, brutal, fascist in their outlook. Here in the commune they were sorting out anybody who had any independent mind. And my whole teaching is to have independent mind! Don’t believe anything unless you know it. Be skeptical. But because I was silent, they were doing just the other.
They were saying, “Believe, and surrender. And all these instructions are coming from Osho.” They were making their instructions, people were writing letters to me, they were never reaching to me. They had created a small fascist state here, so many people left just because of them who wanted to be here with me, who have come from long away, who have sold their everything just to be here with me. With tears in their eyes they had to leave, because they could not surrender to any stupid kind of thing. For example, if you tell somebody that, “Go and poison” or “Inject poison to somebody,” they could not believe that this can be my instruction. And they have come here for me, not for Sheela.
I have been teaching my whole life that my people have to be absolutely nonpolitical, but in three and a half years Sheela was functioning just like a politician, third-grade politician. It was ugly to take over Antelope. We are here, just guests of Oregonians. To take those poor old people’s house does not seem right. I would like the Oregonians and the people of Antelope, if they can buy the properties which Foundation owns, we will vacate Antelope. They can have their place. That is their town. It belongs to them. And we have no hostility against anybody. In fact, we are part of Oregon to them. And we have no hostility against anybody.
In fact, we are part of Oregon now. It does not matter that you have been hundred years here and we have been only four years. Years don’t make any difference. Now this earth is ours, this sky is ours. And we have done everything to change this desert into an oasis. And we want to change this whole place in such a lush green holiday resort that it becomes the best tourist center in America.
We need all support from Oregonians, from Americans, from everybody. Ours hands are stretched and waiting for their hands. In the last press conference, the first journalist had asked me, “Is there any possibility for coexistence between you and Oregonians?” I said, “Never!” And before I could elaborate and make clear my implications of the word “never,” the journalist has moved! I said, “For coexistence, never.” But not for one existence. Coexistence implies hostility. It means we are hostile, but what to do? Just destiny has brought us together, somehow we have to manage to live. Coexistence is not a beautiful word. That’s why I have said, “Never. Coexistence never! One existence, ever.”
We can understand, human nature is always suspicious of strangers. We are strangers. If they are suspicious of us, there is nothing to be disappointed. Just we have to make them aware of our way of life, our creativity, our joy, our celebration. Just we have to welcome them as guests, just to have a feel that we are human beings. Red clothes don’t make any difference. Everybody behind the clothes is naked, red or blue or black does not make any sense.
I have called you media people here especially to inform you a glad news, that this commune is free from a fascist regime. Adolf Hitler has died again. And now we would like in every possible way to be an intrinsic part of Oregon, to contribute whatsoever we can contribute, and expect your friendship, your love, your hospitality. And you will never repent that we came here.
We will make this place so beautiful that Oregon will be proud of it. When we had come just four years before, there was only one house, and one hundred twenty-six square mile desert. For fifty years there was nobody to purchase it. It was for sale for fifty years. Who is going to purchase a desert? But when I heard that it is a desert, I said, “It is a good challenge. Let us try to make it an oasis.” And we have immensely succeeded. But that success goes to my sannyasins, not to that fascist gang. These people have been working twelve hours, fourteen hours a day. And those people were trying to kill our own sannyasins. They were going to kill whole The Dalles. And just because I was absent, uninformed, they have taken in their hands whatsoever they wanted to do.
You will be surprised to know that they far transcended Nixon. They bugged houses, they bugged every place where they thought somebody may be not in favor of them. But strangest thing is my own bedroom, my own sitting room, was bugged. And to me they were saying, “We love you, Osho. We have never loved anybody so much.” Of course. If you had not loved me, why you should bug my bedroom, where I am alone? Perhaps once in a while in sleep I may deliver a speech. But what else is there to be bugged? It seems these people could have even killed me. Because my silence was favorable to them, my absence would have been more favorable. And if I was dead, they could have worshiped my dead body, made a beautiful marble memorial, and be in full power to do whatsoever they want to do.
I came to know only late that they are bringing street people for a program here. They had already planned, people had gone to pick up, buses had moved. And I asked, “What is the reason?” Because I am not much interested in uneducated, illiterate, street beggars. I am not much interested. My interest is in intelligentsia. All my people are university graduates with master’s degrees or doctor’s degrees. I don’t want to lower the standard of the commune.
But they said, “It is only for three months, and we are having it because we have surplus money out of the festival, two and half million dollars. We have more, so we can share in some humanitarian work.” And this was a lie. They were even lying to me, because today I inquired and found that we are fifty-five million in debt. They wasted almost three million dollars and created unnecessary hostility, created some ugly publicity. We are not interested in publicity. We are certainly interested that whatever is the truth about us should be known by everyone, so nobody lives in deceptions, gossips. But we are not interested in publicity. We really want that we forget the whole world and the world forgets us and forgives us, so we can live here silently and peacefully and do our thing.
And then they made in Antelope a housing complex, and never told me exactly what are their intentions about it. I thought it must be for festival purposes, when more sannyasins are there. Only at the last date, next day they were going to have a press conference, and they had to inform me because I was going to be in the press conference. If I had been silent there was no need even to inform me. They informed me that they want to make that housing complex, which can accommodate five hundred people, and they have wasted almost two million dollars on it, they want to make it a AIDS home.
I said, “It is good that you are feeling so compassionate about people who are having AIDS, but you should think also of all the people around Antelope whose life will be in danger. You can put the whole life of Oregon in danger, because AIDS spreads not only by sex contact, it can spread, just by kissing. It can spread even by somebody’s tear. It can spread, somebody eating with a spoon is not sterilized and you use it. Saliva is a carrier.” I said, “This is not right. You are not only putting whole Oregon’s people in great danger, you are putting our own commune in danger. Our doctors will have to look after them. Our nurses will have to look after them. And the same doctors and the same nurses will be looking after the commune.”
I had to stop it. That’s why the great press conference that was going to happen did not happen. Instead, this great press conference is happening. That press conference would have been a curse. This is a blessing.
I would like the media people to spread the news to the farthest corner of the world, because I have my sannyasins around the world, almost more than one million. And these seven people have gone to Europe, and they can do harm to other sannyasins, other communes. They are expert in lying. So please let the message go throughout the world that a group of criminals has reached in Switzerland. Sheela and Puja are the leaders of the group, and they should be avoided more than AIDS!
Now you can ask any question if you have.

Mark Hendricks,
KOIN-TV, Channel 6, Portland (CBS Affiliated)
You said the commune is fifty-five million dollars in debt, that was your figure? Is that the result of negligence on the part of these people or criminal wrongdoing on the part of the people you mention?
It seems because of these people, because they kept the whole commune in ignorance, what they have done with that money seems to be mysterious. We will be searching for it. Because Sheela has done that kind of thing before, too.
While I was in India she managed three hundred million dollars through her brother, Bipin, to swallow it, but in such a way that the whole blame went on Bipin. And Bipin was in America, and we could not do anything about it. And, very strangely, while she was… He had never been here, but the day she left here he was here. Before she left, for two days he was here, perhaps making arrangements.
In fact, purchasing this land Bipin was also the part. The owner was the friend of Bipin. Nobody was purchasing this land. Highest price that was offered was three and a half million. And Bipin managed through Sheela to purchase in seven million. Now I suspect that they both must have got at least two million out of seven million. And just now, today I have been informed that Sheela has a Swiss bank account, and they must have been sending money because how they are going to survive there, taking all these people to Switzerland?
And, by the way, it reminds me one thing more. Sheela was married to one American sannyasin, Jayananda. But because she wanted to escape from here before all these things explode, either from internal sources or from government agencies, if all these things are exposed, then she had to make someplace where to go. So she married one Swiss sannyasin. Just one month before, she went to Mexico. She never told me that she is going to marry. And this was bigamy, she was already married to Jayananda and she married a Swiss sannyasin just to get a Swiss residence. Only later on, legal people suggested her, that this is bigamy, and you have committed a crime. So she rushed to Nepal with one of the sannyasins, a Russian sannyasin who used to live in Nepal before she came here, and her family in Nepal is very prominent and in very close contact with the royal family. She took her with herself to Nepal. To me she said she is going to Singapore for some work for the Commune, but now I have found she has been in Nepal getting a divorce predated. In poor countries you can get, just a little bribe. So she got a divorce in Nepal which is false. She has committed bigamy.
Poor Jayananda was not yet, because he is in Australia. She sent him to Australia so that he does not create any trouble and does not make any fuss.
Does a fifty-five million dollar deficit endanger the future of the commune?
No Money is not such a big thing. We have put more than two hundred millions already in developing it. If we can manage for two hundred million, fifty-five million is just nothing.

Scott Miller,
KGW-TV, Channel 8, Portland (NBC Affiliated)
Since you began speaking again, in the past you have defended Sheela fairly vehemently. How did she get you to go along with all this? You've seemed very well versed on the issues, all the way through, very much in command of the issues that affect your community. Did you really not know what was going on in Antelope, really not know what was going on with the finances?
No. When I was silent I was completely unaware.
Since you've been speaking again, though, there's been about eight months where you have supported Sheela from time to time.
Yeah, because all these things came just to my knowledge yesterday. And today immediately I have called you here. We have not wasted a single minute to inform.
Do you feel like perhaps you're a prisoner here?
No, I am not prisoner here.
In the past, I'm referring to.
No, not even in the past. I was just in isolation. If I was a prisoner, then they would not have escaped. I would have escaped.

Roberta Ulrich,
The Oregonian, Portland
You have sort of held out an olive branch to the people of Oregon and the people of Antelope. Will this include any action to perhaps settle some of the numerous lawsuits amicably?
It can be. In fact, it can settle everything. Why a few? Because the whole problem was Antelope. And we are ready to leave it, because we don’t want… There is no reason. Unnecessary trouble for us. People should manage their own work. Why we should manage their work?
Would you perhaps consider dropping such as the suit against all of the state and local officials as part of your olive branch?
But we have not put any lawsuit against anybody. They have started lawsuits.
You have one against Governor Atiyeh and Dave Frohnmeyer and a long list of…
That is because they have put so many lawsuits against us. If they withdraw their lawsuits, I promise we will withdraw ours.

Richard Wagner,
CBS Network
I thought I heard you talk of poison, and Swiss bank accounts, and fifty-five million dollars. Are we talking about attempted murder and theft, or what are we talking about?
Certainly. You have not been listening well. A journalist is not supposed to have deaf ears.
I agree completely.
Okay, you can ask again.
Specifically, the group you refer to as the fascist gang, of what do you accuse them of doing?
They have attempted to murder people in the commune, they have attempted to murder people in The Dalles. They have attempted bugging people’s houses, my own house, which is against democratic values and against human freedom. They have been taping every phone. If Nixon was a criminal, then these people belong to the same category.
Have they stolen money from the commune?
That has to be discovered, because the person who was managing the money has also escaped with them. So we will have to work out and find ways how…
Do you have the means to discover if the money was stolen?
Yes. We have every means, because we have all kinds of people here: economists, financial advisors, bookkeepers. We have all kinds of best minds. Just they have to put… We never thought about it, so nobody took care of those books. They have to be taken care of.
Do you intend to pursue these people in the courts of Oregon?
Certainly. First, we will find out within the commune everything, and we are making it public so the whole public knows. And we will find out everything. Police we have already reported. We are reporting the Interpol, that these people should be watched. And meanwhile we are investigating everything, and soon we will be going to the court. Because it is not a question of betraying us, it is a question of betraying human values. Otherwise we don’t care about money. Fifty-five million, if they have taken, that is nothing to be worried. That is not much of a problem. We would not have called you here. But bugging houses, telephones being taped, we cannot tolerate. And attempting murder… So we will sue them. We will pursue them wherever they are. Now that is going to be our pursuit of happiness.

Brian Ecker,
Associated Press, Portland
We've been told that Sheela delivered a letter to you on Saturday before she left the commune. If that's true, can you divulge to us what the letter said?
In the letter she did not say that she is going to leave the commune. She simply said that she feels no more excitement coming here, she feels more excitement in Europe. But there was no indication of her leaving. In fact, there was no need to come back, but she had come here to clear few things.
Just today we found in Jesus House they had a special room where they were keeping white mice and injecting them with doses of poison, just to be clear that how much dose is enough not to kill immediately, but in the long run. Otherwise there was no need. She was not here, she had just come two days, three days before. There was no need to come at all. And now we have to look into the books, they may have taken parts of the books or even the whole books may have disappeared.
I have been informed today that she has taken so many tapes, which may be significant. Perhaps they are the tapes that they were recording of telephones and bugging. So her coming was not coming, it was just to clear things so nothing is to be found. And she was to collect the whole gang, because if even a single person is left behind the person may betray. So she were talking to those people for these three days, persuading them to leave: “It is dangerous now to be here.” And her most significant statement to these people was that, “Osho is not interested in the commune or commune’s welfare. His interest is only in diamond watches, Rolls Royces.”
It is was really a surprise to me, because Rolls Royces don’t belong to me. Neither the diamond watches belong to me. The watches that belong to me… This watch you can see, this is not a diamond watch. These are just authentic stones. And this is not a Piaget. From Piaget it is half million dollars. It is not even hundred dollars! Our own sannyasins have made. I am using watches made by my own sannyasins. They can deceive you, but… And the Rolls Royces have its own trust, they don’t belong to me.
But hearing this, that she was saying this, I am going to talk to the trustees of the Rolls Royces that, “Make a pool of all the Rolls Royces, because I don’t need any, so all the sannyasins can use them.” I have many dozens of diamond watches – the same. I am going to ask the Jewelry Trust that, “Make all the watches available to sannyasins.” For me there is no point. Only for one hour while I am speaking in the morning or in a press conference I need a watch. That too is unnecessary, because my bladder functions so perfectly that I know when I have to finish.
Do you believe the sannyasins who have left the commune were involved at all with the salmonella outbreak in The Dalles last year?
I just don’t blame anybody. They have simply showed the animal nature that is behind in each of us. Just it needs power to surface. So I am not angry with them. I am not against them. But they have showed to all the sannyasins that if you don’t become fully aware, these are the poisons that everybody is carrying within. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And now we are going to take every measure that power is decentralized, many more people have the power, and people in power have to be changed more often so nobody takes it for granted that it is his position. It is nobody’s position. And every person who is in power has to understand that he is the servant of the commune, not the master.
I'm not sure if you understood my question. There was an outbreak of salmonella last year in The Dalles. Do you believe that these sannyasins had anything to do with that?
Do you have any evidence of that?
Evidence police will have to find, but my sannyasins have much information about it.

Don Lattin,
San Francisco Examiner
Last summer Sheela made an announcement during the festival where she said you had declared a long list of sannyasins enlightened, and had set up three committees to continue Rajneeshism after you leave your body. My question is, A) Did you in fact tell her that, and B) Are any of those people who you did declare enlightened among this fascist gang?
This was just a joke. We enjoy everything, even we can make a joke of enlightenment.
So you're saying you did tell her that, but you were just joking.
Yes. Not to her, I told even those people. And they were puzzled, and they were shocked, because they know they are not enlightened. And one of my oldest sannyasins said outside that, “Osho is a rascal. I am not enlightened and he has declared me enlightened.” This I call clarity. It was nothing but once in a while the commune needs some entertainment.
The last time there was a change in your personal secretary, the previous woman, Laxmi, sort of disappeared, from public view at least. Where is she and do you expect her to come back now?
She is here! Laxmi? She is here, but she is such a small woman that you may think she has disappeared. Laxmi stand up. Where she is? Not feeling well… She is here.

Pete King,
Los Angeles Times
Did you confront, or try to confront, Sheela with any of this before you went public with us, on any of these accusations?
She avoided to see me. She came here and to avoid seeing me there are very simple methods. You have just to say that you have cold. My doctors don’t allow anybody having cold to come close to me, because I have an allergy and immediately I become sick. So when she came, immediately she said that she has cold. And this has been going on for many times. Yesterday she was suffering from cold, and this morning when she had some work she came, and there was no cold. Cold does not disappear so soon. It takes at least four days, seven days.
She left today or she left Saturday?
She left day before yesterday.
What specifically have you told the police and local authorities, and do you have any fear or concern or desire to bring them in here to investigate maybe some people who were accomplices in any of these alleged things?
No. No. No fear, and we don’t want any compensation.
Do you think all the bad people have left?
Yes. At least the one bunch of fascists have left, and now there is not going to be another bunch because I am going to continue to speak for my whole life. And I will be here.

Steve Davis,
KGO-TV, Channel 7, San Francisco
On the matter of the AIDS clinic or AIDS home in the Antelope housing project, you mentioned here this evening that you learned the day before the news conference that that was what was to be announced at the big news conference. You and I spoke a week or ten days before the news conference, and you alluded to that project in a taped interview with me, in which you characterized it by the same phrase you used tonight, that being something extremely dangerous, and said that you wouldn't have the street people program again because you had done that, but that you were going to do something that would shock America and that was even more dangerous, as you characterized it.
I am doing it. This is more dangerous.
And you weren't at that time alluding to the AIDS clinic in any way? That was not on your mind?
No. I was not alluding. I was alluding to this press conference.
Others – Ma Anand Puja, and I understand she is one of those who is gone now, and Sheela – at that time said that it was indeed the AIDS project that.
That was her idea, which I stopped the moment I came to know. I was aware that the conference is going about AIDS. For that there was no problem. I was ready to talk about AIDS. But when I heard that it is not only AIDS but the opening of the AIDS home, then I freaked out.
Would that conversation about AIDS to which you say you had agreed in the news conference had been something you would consider dangerous, as you refereed to it in our news conference, or in our interview?
That will need another press conference. It is a big subject. This time you cover this. This is more dangerous. And if you are interested in AIDS, we can arrange another press conference. Or you can come alone, and have an interview on AIDS. There is no problem.
No, I'm…
But please don’t change the subject.
I don't believe I did, sir. Thank you.

Bill Graves,
Bend Bulletin
Will you definitely be pulling out of Antelope? And what's to become of all that housing there, that's there now?

Just if they are ready to purchase all the properties that Foundation have there.
So they would have to buy back the property that…
Certainly, because we have buy it. We have purchased from them, we have paid for them.
How about giving them back the name of their town?
You will not do that?
Then they can give, just they have only eight houses and we have almost the whole Antelope. They have one-third, we have two-third. So that will be more reasonable, they should give it up to us and go into Oregon.
What are you going to do with that housing now that you're not going to use it for the AIDS project?
Just my sannyasins I can call from all over America, and we will be using for my sannyasins.
Why did Sheela and these other sannyasins try to poison Mike Sullivan, do you know?
I don’t know, because I had never been interested in all these matters. Just even the name of Mike Sullivan I have heard today. I don’t know anything.

Grey Hoy,
Seven Network, Australia
You do know Sheela very well. Where do you think she and the others will go to settle?
Nobody knows anybody very well. We remain strangers even if we live together for our whole life. That’s something unique in human beings, that there is no way to know the person in his totality. That is his dignity. You cannot penetrate to his privacy. So I don’t claim to know Sheela very well. I was just acquainted, as I am acquainted with all my other sannyasins.
Do you have any idea where she might go to settle?
Perhaps Switzerland, because she has got married there, so the idea of getting married to a Swiss sannyasin certainly makes it clear she is going to settle there.
You advise all of these people to be skeptical. Could I just ask one question of them, and that is: Many of you have also known Sheela well for a long time. Did anyone here express skepticism publicly or privately at Osho's allegations? And I'd invite anyone to answer that.
If you want to ask my people, the best way will be: I can present your question to them. He is asking, “Do you agree with me?” Then raise both of your hands. Look well!

Swami Anand Videha,
Les Zaitz, Italy
Through a situation like this, there seem many possibilities for learning. Can you tell us what you have learned?
I have nothing to learn. In fact, long ago I have unlearned everything. Since then I am just empty, a nothingness. This has given just something to be excited about, nothing to learn. I am enjoying it. And you have to forgive me, because I don’t see movies, I have to create my own movies. Even though I am enlightened, a little entertainment is to be forgiven. Right?

The Oregonian, Portland
You said this evening that you're going to stir in these people again the thought that they have to be independent. You've lectured along that vein for many years. yet in the past three years we've seen that they've surrendered that independence to “the gang.” What does that suggest about your teachings? Have they not listened to you, or have your teachings failed?
No, my teachings cannot fail. It simply suggests that I have got a very trusting, innocent people around me. And I would like a person to be trusting, even if he is deceived, because to be deceived is not a big loss than to lose trust in humanity.
I still trust Sheela and her gang. What they have done is actions, not their being. And my trust is unconditional. If they want to come back and be part of the commune, they will be welcome with the same respect and love.
The people that you've accused of attempted murder would be welcome with respect and love?
Certainly. Even murderer has a human dignity, and they have only accused of attempted murder. Even a murderer should be respected as a human being.

Tom Stevenson,
The Dalles Chronicle, The Dalles
You said earlier that Sheela and her gang had wanted to poison the water system of The Dalles, am I right? You did state that? Did you know that the fact, how far they went, at the fact when they were going to do that, or did you just find that out?
They do really go to the very end. But because of some purifying systems, they could not succeed. The poison could not reach to people. But they had poisoned the reservoir.
You talked about them poisoning or trying to poison other people. Wasco County Judge Bill Hulse was sickened after a visit here.
Yes, that too I just heard today, that he felt also that he was poisoned here.
By Sheela and her gang?
It is possible. The same group can do that too.

Ma Mary Catherine,
Osho Times
These last two days for the people who live here have been an emotional time. A number of them have expressed to me the wish to ask you: How is it that we didn't say what we saw at the time that we saw it?
It always happens. When Adolf Hitler was defeated, his generals, his ministers, many of his prominent people, expressed the same thing that, “How we could not see it?” People are almost asleep. Unless something really shakes them and wakes them up, they don’t see much. But we have seen in time. No harm has been done. Nobody has been murdered, and my people are immensely happy. They have been dancing on the streets, rejoicing, as if they have achieved freedom from a concentration camp. We have to keep it as open, as human, as possible, and we have to be alert that nothing like this happens. We are young, only four years old commune. There is every possibility to commit a mistake. Commit as many mistakes as possible, but don’t commit the same mistake again.
In that regard, what can we watch out for in ourselves to be certain that mistake doesn't happen again?
Just watch one thing, that you are not dominating anybody and that you are not being dominated by anybody. You are a free individual, and you are as important as anybody in the commune. The professor is important, the plumber is as much important as the professor. It makes no difference what is your function. What you are doing is not the question. What you are, your being, is the question. So remember two things. Don’t try to be in any power trip on anybody, and then you will be easily capable to see if somebody else is trying to be powerful over you. Avoid both. And that will give you your integrity and your individuality, and a crystallization that has immense beauty.

Gerald Erickson,
The Dalles Weekly Reminder
About six months ago there was a fire, apparently arson, at the Planning Department office in The Dalles. Do you know if Sheela and her gang are responsible for that?
Thank you for reminding me of it, because the same group was involved in that.
You've laid out an olive branch tonight, and as you know, Sheela was very much disliked by the people of Wasco County and the people of Oregon. Do you think that with the olive branch that you've laid out tonight, and with Sheela being gone, that the people of Oregon and of Wasco County in particular will respond positively to that?
That is up to them, but we are positive.

Ted Viramonte,
Madras Pioneer, Madras
Feelings run strong in Antelope for the people that have been there for an awful long time. They may look upon your offer with distrust. Do you feel that the offer of vacating the houses there is enough, or will you send emissaries out there to talk to them?
No, just for the time being the media is enough. And if it is necessary, I will send emissaries too. And wherever you feel anybody is ready to listen, just contact Isabel, and she will arrange some professor from the university, some psychologist, some therapist. But, by the way, I again love your moustache.

Jackie Johnson,
KBND Radio, Bend
What is your answer to your enemies who will say that Sheela is being used as a scapegoat because she's not here to defend herself?
You can inform Sheela and call her, and she can defend herself. She was not even brave enough to face me. She was here for three days, and she will not come to see me. Just facing me would have been enough. You can inform Sheela. I am available. It may be Sheela, it may be Governor Atiyeh, it may be Ronald Reagan – anybody. I am ready to face, because whatever I am saying is truth. So there is no fear for me. She was afraid, so she escaped, and escaped in a very cowardly way. And all the seven people she has escaped with, none of them came to see me. They just wrote a small letter, the same kind, it seems dictated by Sheela. All the letters with the same matter that, “Beloved Osho, we love you. We are very grateful to you, and we are leaving.” Just great letters. And these people have some guts to call me yet “Beloved Osho” and “We love you, and we are grateful, and we are leaving.” And they give no reason why they are leaving. And all the letters are the same.
You can inform. You can get the address of Sheela, her husband particularly we have. You inform, they can come and face me. I don’t think she will come unless Interpol brings her here. But sooner or later she will have to face me.
At another interview that I was present at, you stated that you were a man who loves controversy. What are you going to do for controversy now?
And what am I doing? I have been controversial with outside people, now I am being controversial with my own people. I will be controversial, whatsoever happens, whoever the target. But I am going to be controversial.

Ma Viren,
Espresso magazine, Panorama magazine, and Eurepeo, Italy
I come from Italy…
…And Italy is a country known because of the Mafia. What I see here is that a deep cleaning is happening. How can be this relate to the birth of the new man?
The Mafia was here. Now it is in Switzerland. And there is more possibility for the New Man to happen now. Otherwise the Mafia will kill the New Man anywhere. It is against the vested interests of any kind of Mafia. We are feeling really unburdened. Strangely, even I am feeling clean and fresh, just out of my shower. This small group was something heavy and dirty, and they must have been creating a very dirty vibe. It is good that they are gone. In fact, I am making this statement so that they never think to come back again.
And what will be the future in the commune? You were speaking two days ago about calling intelligent people here now that everything is being rid from the mediocrity. So what these intelligent people will do? When what you see…?
You have to be worried about retarded people, that what they will do in the future, because they are dependent on somebody. These people are not dependent on me. I hate anybody to be dependent on me, just as I am not dependent on anybody. I have even dropped God because that was a trouble. If there is a God, you have to be dependent. So I don’t have any god, and man is the supreme reality. You need not be dependent on anybody. And now people have seen that in these three and a half years depending on a certain group, and they got deceived because that group was telling to them, “These are from Osho, these instructions are from Osho.” And these people had no way to find out whether these instructions are from me or not. Now, I am available to everybody.

Susan Barr,
Q104, The Dalles
There are lots of lawsuits involving your commune and the state of Oregon and the county of Wasco, and since these may have been initiated by some of the people in this gang, and may be politically motivated, are you going to back off on the lawsuits that are back and forth between the state and your commune?
Just wait a little. All those lawsuits will disappear.
By your action?
Another question. Do you believe that all the people who wanted to betray you are gone from this commune?
No. Nobody can betray me, because I never expect anybody not to betray me. They did what they could. It is not betraying me. That was their potential that came up. Because they had power, so they could use their potential. It must have been there, dormant, for their whole life. They have not betrayed me.
Have they betrayed anyone here?
No. They have just betrayed themselves.

Bob Smith,
KPRB Radio, Redmond
In the past you, at least on one occasion, referred to the people of Oregon as being stupid. Do you still know of no people as stupid as those in Oregon?
In fact, I don’t know any Oregonians. I know only about the governor, Atiyeh, and the attorney general. Both are stupids, both are idiots. I can’t help, I have to say the truth. But if you think they are representatives of the whole Oregon, then it is your viewpoint. I don’t think they are the representatives of the whole Oregon. There must be many intelligent people in Oregon.
Is it necessary for the people of Rajneeshpuram and any other group, or the people as a whole of the state of Oregon, to have anything to offer to another as a larger social group. Do we need in any way to depend upon one another for anything, or do we stand as separate entities?
Everybody depends. In that sense nobody is absolutely independent. Life is an interdependence. If you don’t breathe for few moments, you will be finished. That means you are dependent on the air. If you don’t drink water, within a few days you will be gone. You are dependent on the water. We are all interdependent. And there is nothing wrong in it. It is not dependence. Interdependence simply means we are an organic whole, that we are somehow interlinked, not only with human beings, but with trees, with birds, with animals, with earth, with sky, with the sun. We are connected with the whole universe. Every single individual is connected multi-dimensionally, otherwise he cannot exist for a single moment.
Seeing this organic unity, I am against divisions of religion, divisions of races, divisions of nations, divisions of societies. Those all divisions are wrong. Humanity – at least humanity should be one. Then perhaps we can spread that unity towards animals and trees and clouds, and hope one day that man has become universal. But that will be total interdependence.
If Sheela were to come back to Rajneeshpuram, what kind of greeting could she expect?
She will be welcome. She can come only if she goes through a transformation and understanding. She can come only if she comes and confesses what she has done. We will welcome her, because her past cannot hold her future. Her past is past, and gone. Her future is still open and free and fresh. And that’s my attitude about everybody.
I am against death penalty for this reason, because you don’t give the person another chance, you finish his future. The murder was his past, but he has a future too. Give him a chance. Teach him how to live. There must be something psychologically wrong with the person, that he had to murder.
So if Sheela comes here, we will welcome her. And we have all kinds of therapies. We will clean her completely, deprogram her, and make her a simple human being.

Alex King,
KACI Radio, The Dalles
Was there an effort to subvert the state and federal election laws while Sheela was running the show?
I was in silence in those days, but just now, coming out of silence, I came to know about it, that it was suspected that she had some idea of bringing these people to vote. It is possible. She has a political mind. But I cannot be certain about it. But it is possible. Otherwise I don’t think she will waste money on three thousand street people unnecessarily, knowing me perfectly, that I am against poverty, and I don’t want my commune to become poor in any way. I want my commune to be the most luxurious place in the world.
Can we be assured that Sheela's terrorism has ended in Wasco County?
It’s certainly ended. There is no possibility… Sheela gone, we don’t have any other politicians. Even the mayor or Rajneeshpuram has gone with the gang. All those who had any political minds, they all have escaped. Now it is going to be difficult, whom to choose the mayor. Nobody wants. That’s why everybody has been declared the president of the commune and president of the foundation. Just the mayor has not been declared, because nobody wants.

Isabel: Osho, There is one last question, from a journalist, Fred Breuning from Newsday in New York. He interviewed you recently and couldn’t come in time. He asks…
Were you not aware that this kind of elitism was taking place in your name, and why didn't you act sooner?
No, I was not aware. People have a misunderstanding about enlightenment. They think to be enlightened means to be aware of everything in the world – past, present, future. I am not even aware what is in my bathroom, what is going on in my bedroom. If they could bug my bedroom and I was not aware… I was not aware at all what was going on. To me, enlightenment simply means I am aware of myself. And that’s enough, more than that is unnecessary.

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