INTERVIEW WITH THE WORLD PRESS
The Last Testament Vol 2 25
TwentyFifth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 2 by Osho.
You can listen, download or read all of these discourses on oshoworld.com.
Tom Greening,
Humanistic Psychology magazine, Los Angeles, California, United States
Glad to meet you.
Osho,
Thank you for this opportunity. I've enjoyed the Ranch and the people today, and your discourse this morning.
That’s great.
Now you can ask your questions.
Well, it's an auspicious day, what with your discourse this morning about power and Sheela.
What's happening in the Ranch and the consciousness that would in the future more rapidly confront the over-concentration of power or the misuse of power, the processes within the people themselves that would correct that in an individual?
The human mind is so old, its conditioning is of thousands of years. It takes a tremendous effort to detach yourself from the conditionings of the past. The conditionings are not only your past, that is a very small fraction; beyond your past is the collective past of humanity, which is almost infinite. And you have been programmed in this whole past – programmed in such a way that lust for power has become almost natural.
If you get power, then you want more. And there is no end to more. And the more power you want, the more people are going to lose their freedom. Your power is their loss of freedom. If you become ultimately powerful, they will become just slaves. So the real struggle is between the instinct of power and the value of freedom.
It is possible to prevent it happening in a small commune like this. Simple methods can change it. What you are suggesting is an ultimate change – a change of their awareness: they become so conscious that no lust for power can raise its head in their psyche. That is a goal of all spiritual growth, but it will happen when it will happen. Meanwhile, we have to take temporary steps. For example, decentralization of power; it should not be in one hand, it should be in many hands. It should not be concentrated but diluted.
There should be no hierarchy. Whatever one is doing, you may be a doctor, a professor, a president of a corporation, a farmer, a gardener – these are functions, they are not definitions of your individuality. The moment you come out of the classroom you are no longer a professor; you are a professor only while you are “professing,” you are a teacher only while you are teaching. The moment the function ceases, you are simply a human being. The function is not you. What you do is not your being.
This is my approach, and it is working. It was just because I was silent for three and a half years, and I was not in contact with the day-to-day activities of the commune, that Sheela could get into a power trip. But that too has been of immense significance for the whole commune to learn something – how people can go on becoming more and more attached to power and how power goes on corrupting them. And it is a vicious circle: power corrupts you, then corruption needs more power; otherwise you will be exposed, More power needs more corruption…
Osho,
What prevented the sannyasins from dealing with it earlier on their own?
There were many problems. First, the sannyasins have not gathered here for any political reason. They have come to me – to be just in my presence, in my silence, and to learn how to be silent and more conscious.
But meanwhile they are living in a political world that can harm them and so they must become political and…
No. It is better to get harmed than to become political, because that is more harmful than any other harm can be. And somebody, somewhere in the world, has to take the initiative not to be political, to be available to be harmed, and not ready to harm anybody.
These people have not come here to harm anybody. They have just come to live silently, and to seek, search, whatever is their reality. So because they were all focused on that program, it was possible for Sheela and her group to go on doing things and nobody bothered about it. If it was a political group, then there would have been conflicts, there would have been elections and there would have been fights, and she would have been thrown out long ago. But because these people are not in any way power oriented, and they were thinking that whatever Sheela is doing she is doing on my instructions – that’s what she was telling them.
Certainly she was receiving a few instructions from me, but it was at her discretion what instruction to use, what not to use, and it was in her hands to arrange any instruction that I had not given.
I have come to know just today that she was doing exactly what Nixon was doing: she has bugged houses, and you will be surprised – my house, my bedroom!
There was a leadership vacuum and…
Yes.
…she filled it. And that always happens when there's a vacuum – someone will fill it. It's simple.
No. But it has not harmed anybody, she simply befooled herself. Nobody is harmed by her bugging or taping peoples’ conversations, because these people and their telephone conversations are either simple gossips, or some loving words to a friend. Taping them is simply stupid; they are not plotting any conspiracy. But people who are power oriented are paranoid – they are always afraid that somebody is going to take their place.
Otherwise, bugging my room was absolutely stupid because she was the only one who used to come there – just for her work, if some advice was needed. There was no need to bug it. But she must have been afraid: perhaps somebody else enters without her knowing, informs me about what is going on – just paranoia. These people were not living happily; they were simply trembling inside, continuously afraid and looking everywhere with suspicion. And my people are meditating, working, enjoying, dancing, singing – they don’t have anything to bother about. That’s why she could carry on for three and a half years.
It became difficult for her only now, because I started speaking. My speaking created trouble for her.
Osho,
The day will come when you will stop speaking again. Will your sannyasins then have moved spiritually, politically, to where they can handle that kind of problem?
I am not going to stop speaking until I am dead. And who knows – I may speak even after that!
But in case you don't.
Just old habit.
Or they may hear you speaking even after death…
Yes.
…whether you do or not.
But I will prepare them – and they are preparing. It has been a good experience for them, so that it should not happen again – they should not be political, but they should be aware that they are not being politically cheated, that somebody does not become political on their account and take advantage of them. It will not happen now. I will prepare them for it too, that they should keep an eye open.
Decentralization of power into many people’s hands will be one of the basic things. Second, the people should be taught that they do their meditations, they rejoice in their life, they need not worry too much about it, but they should keep an eye open. It is their life and nobody should become so powerful that he starts interfering. Now, it is against human freedom to tape somebody’s phone, to bug somebody’s room – it is inhuman and ugly. And that too, of people who love you, who are not against you – there are no political parties here.
But people do that, we know they do that. Were you surprised?
No, I am not surprised. I am never surprised because I know human mind so clearly. It can do any stupid thing – there is no need to be surprised.
Osho,
I guess my hope is that by knowing that people will do any stupid, ego-oriented, power trip, that we can sometimes design strategies in advance to prevent that from happening.
I will be doing it. It will be prevented – it won’t happen again.
Decentralization of power is one way – other ways of…?
People have to – I am now going to constantly make them aware and alert. I am going to help them not to ignore what people in power are doing, and I am putting in power people who simply have no ambition, who have been connected with me. And I know them – they have no ambition of any kind. In fact, they are taking the posts unwillingly. And my third idea is that we will be rotating; there is no need for power to remain in one hand for a long period, so that the person starts taking it for granted that it is his.
So, rotate power, change people. And it is good, we are doing that rotation in other fields: professors are gardening; a gardener who has been a professor is back in the university. A therapist is in the carpenter’s workshop and a carpenter – my own carpenter who has made this chair is a Ph.D., he can go to the university any day and be the vice-chancellor.
So, we are doing that in every field. We were just not touching the power elite, for the simple reason that there were so many complications with the government, with law courts, so we wanted the people to deal with it who knew, who had been dealing with it, who had been going to the court. But now we will take that risk. It is better to take the risk, rather than give somebody an opportunity to become an egoist. It is against his spiritual growth to give him the opportunity to become an egoist.
Osho,
I assume that the rotation of roles does not include yourself?
I am not in any position, so rotation is impossible. I don’t hold any position; I am not even a member of the commune, I am not a voter. I live outside the city. I am just an outsider and I have been an outsider everywhere – in my own country I was an outsider, in my own family I was an outsider. To be an outsider seems to be my fate.
Who will make the appointments though, of the new leaders that are to be rotated?
There are councils. I can suggest my ideas to the councils, then it is up to them to function accordingly or they can decide on their own. I can simply give them my advice. I cannot dictate anybody.
And you feel that they are now sufficiently enlightened or self-empowered that they can make their own wise decisions?
They can. They can, certainly.
Without being too swayed by your recommendations or opinions?
No. They can, because they were the people who were not supportive of Sheela and her fascist group. They were in the group…
But yesterday they were not strong enough to remove Sheela – tomorrow they will be strong enough?
No, there was no question of removal. They had no idea that Sheela could be removed. Now they know it. But they were ready, and when Sheela asked them if they would like to go with her, they simply refused. They were simply feeling nauseous and sick at her behavior. Those who were with her have left with her. It is good; it is a good cleaning process. And only those who were against the whole process that she was doing have been left behind.
So now these people are more reliable; they will not allow anybody to do anything in the same way. And I am telling them that power should now be a rotated thing. Whenever you feel somebody is getting too interested in power, change them immediately.
I hope it works.
Yes, we can only hope – what works, nobody knows.
Osho,
Someone, perhaps it was Ezra Pound, once defined a slave as someone who waits for someone else to set them free, and it sounds a bit like the sannyasins had to wait for you to grant them the authority, permission, to exercise more self-governing power.
No. It is not permission, neither is it authority; it is just a little awareness which they were missing. And the moment I said it, they immediately understood. They danced in the streets as if they had come out of a concentration camp. All that they needed was just a little awareness that that too is their work: to keep alert that nobody becomes dictatorial, that their freedom is not interfered with.
And Sheela seems to be really insane. In fact, all power-oriented people are a little insane. A sane person would not like to enslave anybody. Just today I have come to know that Sheela and her group even tried to poison my physician. They wanted to poison two other persons who were close to me, for the simple reason that nobody should be close to me except Sheela. These three persons were in the way.
This did not surprise you?
No.
It surprises me.
No, it surprises you but it didn’t surprise me, because it is simple arithmetic – it can be understood. Anybody who wants to be dictatorial, who wants me not to be approachable by anybody else, would think of this. My physician was able to approach me to check me, so he could inform me about what is going on. My caretaker who brings food for me – she may bring information. My dentist who sometimes works on my teeth may tell me something. So there were only these three persons who were in any way capable of informing me.
And part of your awareness was the thought, “Hmm, perhaps Sheela might want to poison them?”
No, that never occurred to me. I was never thinking that.
Then you were surprised.
No, I was not surprised. I was simply sad – sad that a woman from whom we expected a more loving heart, should think in terms of killing people. I was simply sad – sad for Sheela, that she must be in a mess. The very idea is sickening. I am not angry at her, because I can understand these things can happen to power-oriented people.
Osho,
We could look at this event in terms of systems theory and ask in what way is Sheela a product of all of us? How are we all – including yourself – responsible for Sheela?
That’s true. In a way we are all responsible for everybody – not only for Sheela, but for Adolf Hitler, for Ronald Reagan, for Joseph Stalin. We are responsible for our whole humanity, because we are part of it and in some way or other we contribute to it.
Osho,
And my sadness and my concern is that we never seem to learn fast enough to anticipate and heal the paranoia or power drives that are everywhere. And so when someone such as yourself comes into the world with love or creativity, then throughout history it bumps up against…
It is true. And we are not only slow in learning, we are almost incapable of learning. We have not learned anything for these two thousand years. Our values and qualities of being human have not grown. We may have become more polished, more sophisticated – we may not crucify Jesus Christ, we may give him a good electric chair – but that makes no difference. We are the same people.
Osho,
How will your message and your practical strategy in the world be more durable, more wise?
No, I never think about the future. My concern is not the future.
Only you have security forces to preserve the future a little bit longer.
They were not my security forces. The commune thinks about the future – naturally – because they are going to live here longer than me; their children will be here, living longer than me. I have no interest in the future. My interest is totally in the present. My interest is in my people and whatever I can share with them – my experience – and in whatever way I can help them to become more conscious. The whole thing is how to deprogram them of the past and make them conscious in the present.
If my work is done in the present, it will take care of the future too, because the future does not come from anywhere else; it comes out of the present. Your present grows into the future, so if you are taking care of a rosebush now, without bothering about the flowers… If your care is enough, the flowers will come in their time – you need not bother about them. A person who thinks too much about the flowers, may perhaps neglect the care of the plant.
My interest is my people who are with me, and whatever I can do for them I am ready to do.
Osho,
I also feel some concern or sadness about the relationship between your people and the people of Oregon, and wish that there be a process there also that could be healing or de-escalating. Do you see that happening?
It is difficult, for the simple reason that I am not interested in converting people. Neither am I interested that the well should run after the thirsty, because that may make the thirsty even more afraid. A well coming toward you – I don’t think you will stand in your place, you will run away!
So my idea is that the thirsty have to come to the well.
Well, we're not talking about conversion; we're just talking about some live and let live.
That is happening – there is no problem in it. We are living, they are living – there is no problem in it. And we are living very happily. They are in worries and unnecessary tension, frightened, hostile, for no reason at all. When we have been welcoming them, saying, “You should come and see what we are doing here,” nobody comes. Even the governor has not the guts to come here. Three times we have invited him.
He speaks against us without knowing anything about us. The United States attorney declares our city illegal without ever thinking that we have changed a desert into a oasis, where five thousand people are living self-sufficiently. Perhaps the desert was according to the land-use laws. To turn it into an oasis, create enough food for five thousand people – enough vegetables, enough milk, and everything; to make houses for five thousand people with all modern facilities, the whole commune fully, centrally air-conditioned…
We have invited them: “You should come and see, and if you see that this city is not doing right or the land is being misused, just tell us. We are ready to change; we have no problem. If you say that this is not the right use of the land, show us. Otherwise we can show you what the right use of land is.” All the ranches around are poor, and they have been working on their ranches for hundreds of years. And we have been working for only four years on this ranch. And this was the worst ranch, perhaps in the whole of Oregon – because for fifty years nobody was ready to purchase it.
But you know we're talking about more than land-use; we're talking about attached, vulnerable egos. I'm hoping that, perhaps with Sheela gone, there might be some new strategies that you would have that would deal with it in some new ways.
We will simply go on doing our thing. And just by our transforming the desert, making our people happier, our laughter is going to reach them. And perhaps one day they may come to understand, and if they don’t understand, that is their problem.
We are not worried, and it is not a problem to us.
Well, it does occupy a lot of time, energy and money fighting these battles.
No, there is no problem, because we have four hundred sannyasins who are law experts – the biggest law firm in the world.
Wouldn't they rather be laughing than doing law though?
They are enjoying. They are enjoying, and we are going to fight. And we are winning the cases – and finally we are going to prove that we are strangers here, but we love the American constitution as something immensely valuable for humanity. And we are fighting for the constitution against the Americans – this is such an exciting project that we are going to do it.
That strategy appeals to me more than the name-calling.
Name-calling does not mean anything.
Well, it stirs up needless opposition sometimes.
That is helpful. I know my business! If you don’t disturb them you are ignored. They understand a certain language; that language has to be used against them.
And again you were not surprised at how much opposition and paranoia you ran into in Oregon?
We are not surprised at anything. It just proves that Oregon must be the most stupid state in America. A small community of five thousand people, and the whole state of Oregon should be afraid of us – what can we do?
But you know what you can do. You can shake their world apart.
That we are going to do! – that we are going to do. And if they want that we should not do that, then it is better they come to their senses. And rather than being hostile, just be friendly. We are friendly; we have no hostility against them.
No intentional hostility, but you constitute a threat to their attached egos.
That we will continue to do. Unless they start seeing the fact that they have to come here and understand us, we are going to hurt their egos more and more. And we are going to drag them up to the Supreme Court and we are going to expose them throughout the world. I am using the whole modern media…
I was silent, so they were not in much trouble – now they will be. For one month continuously, I have been giving interviews every day, to newspapers, magazines, radio, television, from all over the world – and this program is going to continue till we have exhausted every media, big or small, around the world. This small community certainly can create trouble for them.
Osho,
In addition to the creative and effective use of the constitutional law and of the media, I guess I'm wanting to hear more about some compassion and love for those people who are having trouble adjusting to the change.
We have immense compassion for them.
Do they know that? Do they feel that?
That is up to them. I can love you, you may not feel it; that does not mean that I don’t love you.
But then there are so many…
There is no necessity by law that because one person loves another, the other immediately feels it – it is not that way.
We have every compassion for them. We are ready to do anything for Oregon. And whatever we are doing, is doing for Oregon. We don’t have any hostility at all, no hate against anybody. But if the people who are in power in Oregon think that just by being in power they can misuse laws, take advantage of their power, go against the constitution, we are not going to tolerate it.
We love them. Still we will love them, but we will fight them.
There are so many ways of loving; are there perhaps some new forms of love that the community might extend outward?
What do you want – I should go and hug the governor? He will die, then and there! Then don’t say, “You are responsible. You killed the man.”
Well…that might be too much. Perhaps another way.
It is not too much. They are such cowards, and we have been continuously sending them invitations: “Be our guests. And before you do anything – and we are not saying not to do anything – before you do anything, just see and be acquainted with us and what we are doing, and then go to the court and do whatever you want to do.” None of them has been able to come here.
And they are not only cowards, they are very third-grade politicians. They had a private, secret meeting in which all the agencies of the state were present. And the meeting was concerning us, so we asked that at least one person – the mayor of Rajneeshpuram – could be there, just so that no misinformation was given. They did not allow anybody from here. They were discussing us and they didn’t allow a single person from here – they did not even allow the press.
The governor told the press to stay outside: “After the meeting I will tell you what has happened in the meeting.” He gave a press conference, and you will be surprised, everything that he said was a lie. It was not discussed in the meeting – not a single word of it. And what was discussed in the meeting, not a single word was told to the press.
How did you learn that?
Because a journalist somehow managed to get the secret file, and it was shown on the television; then we came to know. We contacted the journalist and got a copy of it. In the meeting they discussed, “We should keep the army alert that any moment they can be ordered to reach Rajneeshpuram. At the most, three hours notice will be given. So, within three hours they have to be ready to reach Rajneeshpuram.” Now, this is the result of our invitations to them, and this is your governor, your statesmen, politicians.
They lied to the press. And putting the army on alert, for five thousand people who are not doing any harm to anybody – what do you want we should do to show our love to them? We have been inviting them. If they cannot come, they can invite me – I am ready. But they are just chickens. At the most you can make good soup out of them!
Well, calling them chickens or stupid or third-rate politicians – which they may be – I'm not sure that helps.
Mm? We don’t care. We are so happy with ourselves, we don’t care at all. We are so utterly contented that it does not matter. We can fight a few cases here and there. And we are going to win, because the constitution is in our favor and the law is in our favor. So they will be simply proving themselves utter fools.
It happened just a few days ago: we had the annual festival – fifteen thousand people were here from all over the world. The tents we had made were special tents. We made them ourselves, and we had made them such that they can be used in the winter. So they were not ordinary tents, but still they were tents. And we have applied for a patent for the tents, that we have invented a tent which can be used in snow, which can be used in winter without any trouble, without any problem. The United States attorney immediately imposed a fine. [aside] How much fine did he impose?
Reply: One point four million dollars.
One point four million. We asked them, “Come and see before you impose a fine. They are not permanent structures, so they don’t need any permission. And you have not seen them – none of your officers have seen them. You have taken it for granted that they are permanent structures just because they’re winterized.”
But nobody came. And I told my people, “Just take a tent into the courtroom. Open the bag, put up the tent – it takes ten minutes; and then unfold it – it takes ten minutes – and ask the judge, ‘Can a permanent building be made in ten minutes and unfolded again in ten minutes? So this is a tent.’”
The judge simply dismissed the case and said, “This is absurd. This is a tent. Nobody can make a permanent building in ten minutes.”
Now, if this attorney has any dignity he should have jumped into the ocean! He must be a buffoon: you fine somebody one point four million dollars without any grounds, without even looking at what you are punishing them for – all their cases are such, and we are going to prove in each case that they are being behaving in a stupid way.
It is better for them that they should come. We have no antagonism against them. We have no political aspirations, we have no political parties; we are not concerned at all, just leave us alone – but they cannot leave us alone.
Osho,
But you won your point there, why call the man a buffoon? Why not let him be? You got what you wanted – why rub it in?
I have got – and we will be getting it more. They are going to be the losers on every point.
Osho,
You also, of course, are depending on there being first-rate politicians and judges who will follow the constitution, and fortunately there are such people. Then there are people who are half way between buffoon and first-rate.
Yes.
Many of those people are my friends, or like myself…easily impressed one way or the other, not knowing what to make of you, of the Ranch, hearing gossip, reading things, getting little pieces of information. I like that you're doing more interviews, more media – I hope that that gets more information out.
We will make more information available, and we know that there are judges who will be pressurized by the politicians, there are judges who are just fifty-fifty, cannot be relied upon. But there are a few judges who are one hundred percent fair. So we will drag the cases till we find the person who is a hundred percent fair.
And once we have got the hundred percent-fair judge, then there is no problem. Right now only my legal people are fighting; if it is needed, I am going to stand before the Supreme Court myself.
That would be a marvelous drama to witness!
Yes, it will be. It will be. And my whole circus will also be there.
Osho,
This morning you said that you're an ordinary man, and I know you meant in terms of your way of being and living. And yet, of course, you don't always look and act like an ordinary man – why is that?
Because everybody is extraordinary here in this world, so I have to look a little separate from the extraordinary people. And because I am being just an ordinary person, I have to use a gold and diamond watch, a Rolls Royce limousine – just to be out of the crowd of the extraordinary people.
I promised myself that I was going to be one of the few people who didn't ask you about the Rolls Royces. But I did ask my mechanic before coming, “What should I talk about? What should I ask this man?” And he said, “If he's going to buy expensive cars, why does he buy Rolls Royces? It's not a car: it's stodgy furniture.” So he wants you to buy Maseratis.
No. They don’t come close to Rolls Royces. No car comes close to it.
For you it's not stodgy furniture?
I love it!
Osho,
I work as a psychotherapist and I've been influenced by Carl Rodgers and Rollo May and also by Maurice Friedman who is a sort of interpreter of Martin Buber. I was wondering how psychotherapy would look in the context of your buddhafield? What would I see that is different? What could we find that we could point to that would say, “Aha! There's something different here, different even from relatively enlightened existential psychotherapy”?
It is different, and it can enrich psychotherapy tremendously to understand the difference. All psychoanalytical schools are very superficial. Psychoanalysis – the very word – does not go beyond mind. And man’s real being is beyond mind.
Well, the transpersonal psychotherapists certainly would agree in principle to what you're saying, and many of us have long ago put psychoanalysis behind us.
Even the transpersonal psychoanalysts have no idea of what meditation is. It is not transpersonal, it is transcendental. It is a state of no-mind. And psychoanalysis goes on and on, on the circumference – moving, analyzing, and it never reaches the center.
In the East, man has been working on the mind for at least five thousand years. In the West, psychoanalysis is not even one hundred years old; it is just childish. Patanjali is five thousand years old, but he does not bother about psychoanalysis. He simply says there is no need to be bothered about it. Simply become aware of the content of your mind – the thoughts, the dreams or whatever is passing through. And just remain a witness, without any judgment, “This is good, this is bad.” You have nothing to do with it; it is just traffic that is moving, and you are standing by the side of the road, just watching without any judgment.
Slowly the traffic becomes thinner, and a moment comes when the traffic simply disappears. When the traffic completely disappears, a new experience of no-mind, a new experience of simple awareness – awareness aware of itself, because there is nothing else to be aware of.
Once this awareness – you can call it enlightenment, you can call it total consciousness – once this is realized, you are beyond all mental problems because you are beyond mind. Now the mind cannot affect you at all.
Psychoanalysis continuously tries to analyze the content of the mind, to find out the symbols, the meaning, and somehow…
Osho,
But many therapists nowadays have put that aspect of psychoanalysis behind them and, at least in principle – perhaps not always with the ability, but at least in principle – attempt to work with clients in the way that you're describing. And I propose it to you as a research project, to study the process of psychotherapy as it occurs here, and to see how it is different from…certainly from psychoanalysis, but also from psychotherapy as done by people who have done extensive Zen meditation or whatever else.
Just one thing: you think the people who are doing transpersonal psychoanalysis have something, at least intellectually, about meditation. The only criterion is: have these people themselves gone beyond problems? Do they have worries, do they have tensions, do they have sadnesses, do they feel things that everybody feels and goes through? – the boredom, despair, meaninglessness, anguish.
If they don’t feel these things at all and don’t show any indication of it, and they don’t have any desire to know God – because that desire is just a projection of a child for a father figure. If they don’t desire for any paradise – because paradise is only desired by beggars – if one is content and fulfilled, he is in paradise. So it is not a question of intellectual understanding. You have to watch these people and you have to watch their patients. Years in psychoanalysis and where are they?
There is not a single person in the whole world who can be said to be completely psychoanalyzed. A strange profession. And there are people who have been analyzed for twelve years by many analysts, and they just go on and on, just moving round and round, reaching nowhere.
The only criterion is: the person whose quest is fulfilled, who is not in any inquiry anymore, who has no question about existence, about himself, about anything, who has found himself, who has found the ultimate answer for everything – and that will show in his every act, in his every gesture. It is not a question of intellectual conceivability, comprehension, presentation. You will have to look at the person and at his existential status: if his wife falls in love with someone, whether he feels jealousy or not. If his wife is happy with someone, the man who is enlightened will be immensely happy, because he always wanted his wife to be happy. It does not matter if she is happy with someone else, what matters is that she is happy.
Osho,
I'm also involved in the training of psychotherapists, and it would be of immense value if you could produce some video tapes of therapists here working with people in this way, so that I and other teachers of psychotherapy could show them to students.
Yes, that can be done very easily, there is no problem in it. Anything that you feel will be useful to anybody, anywhere, just suggest it to my university people and they can produce it.
And, as your university progresses, if there were people and money and time and energy to do some research attempting to describe this work, it would be good as part of your public relations to reach out to the community of psychologists, to say, “Here, we are serious. We do this work.”
That’s perfectly right. It can be done. It can be done very easily – there is no difficulty.
Osho,
Back to the issue of building the community in ways that power can be shared and decentralized. Another method – I wonder if it's being done – is to have not just informal discussions amongst the people, but even some formalized processes for reviewing decision-making, power usage and misusage, some way of self-review. The group practice that I'm in, we meet for eight hours once a month and for one hour every week to look at what's happening among us.
Yes, that can be easily done. That’s perfectly good and helpful.
Again, it distributes the power and it builds a skill into people…to look at what's happened in terms of awareness, really.
It can be of immense help. Thank you for the suggestion!
Osho,
In about two weeks I'll be making my third trip to the Soviet Union, to talk with psychologists and others there, and just as you struggle with the citizens of Oregon, some of us are struggling with the citizens of the Soviet Union. I keep thinking, “What can I do there? How can I make some difference? What can I say?” If I were a sannyasin, would I be better equipped to go there and to talk?
Certainly. And it is never too late.
I told my friends if I wasn't back in a week, to send help!
When are you going to the Soviet Union?
October third.
Because I have my underground sannyasins there.
I read an article about some of them in the Soviet press that…
Yes, they are writing against me. They are persecuting my people. They have banned my books, they have taken my books away from people, and they have been harassing them. The KGB has been calling and continuously interrogating them. But it doesn’t matter; my people are very excited and interested. I can inform them at least to meet you.
You must have been amused to hear yourself accused of working for the CIA.
Yes, in Russia it is known that I am working for the CIA; in America I am working for the KGB! Perhaps…
You're the most conspicuous double agent that there's been!
Perhaps I am working for both, or both are working for me. But it is interesting – I don’t think any man is in such a position, who will be condemned by America, by Russia, who will be condemned by Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Jainism. I don’t think there is anyone who will be condemned by everybody. But to me…
And by the Maserati dealers of America.
Yes. To me, it means that whatever I am doing and whatever I am saying must have something of immense value. Otherwise, so many people would not simultaneously be against me. That gives me enough courage, encouragement.
Osho,
I sense that you do derive energy and excitement from the controversy.
Yes, I certainly derive energy.
Osho,
While you're a courageous man, I become worried when I see so much hostility – the guns.
No, it will go. It is just natural, human nature; it will go. It cannot stay long, because in fact there is no base for it. If there was any base for it, I would have been concerned, but there is no base. From our side we don’t have any hostility. Our hands are always outstretched and ready to meet with their hands. So it will just take a little time – it will go, it is not to be worried about.
But when you are in the Soviet Union, talking with Soviet psychoanalysts, just mention me. And if they have not read my books, tell them that their education about psychoanalysis will remain incomplete, and if they ever come out of the Soviet Russia they should come to this red commune. Soviet Russia has only a red flag; we are all red people here. They should come here.
I will extend that invitation, and I know a few Soviets who have a particular interest in the kind of experiment that you are doing and who…
Just give them the invitation on my behalf. And here in America, anybody who wants to come, just give him also on my behalf – and my people are very hospitalizing. He will not be…
[laughter about the use of the word]
He will not be disappointed – they will hospitalize him!
I hope you'll allow me to translate that into hospitable when I…
No! This way it is better. We have a hospital for the guests.
Osho,
When I return and I tell people of the hospitality and warmth that I felt here, and that the people did seem conscious and alive and free and autonomous, then some of my friends – the eternal skeptics – will say, “Oh, well, Tom is always kind of gullible, eager to please, believes in things. They must have sold him too.” What shall I say to them?
Just tell them it is true. I am almost a second-hand car salesman – just tell them that. I can sell any kind of car!
Osho,
If I were really shrewder and tougher, what tough question would I ask you now?
You can ask any.
No, I'm asking you for help here!
Just try.
What do you see as the unresolved problems in running the Ranch, in enlightening and liberating the sannyasins – what's next? How must the work proceed next? What new form do you envision? Just decentralization of power, certainly, is one.
I never think of tomorrow. After talking to you I will go to sleep and forget everything, and if tomorrow comes, then I will have it – but it will be again today. So I have managed only for today. Tomorrow has no place in my life, in my thinking, in my vision. One day is enough.
Today was a pretty big day for many people here.
Yes, it is good. Come back again whenever you can find time.
Thank you. I will.
Good.
Humanistic Psychology magazine, Los Angeles, California, United States
Glad to meet you.
Osho,
Thank you for this opportunity. I've enjoyed the Ranch and the people today, and your discourse this morning.
That’s great.
Now you can ask your questions.
Well, it's an auspicious day, what with your discourse this morning about power and Sheela.
What's happening in the Ranch and the consciousness that would in the future more rapidly confront the over-concentration of power or the misuse of power, the processes within the people themselves that would correct that in an individual?
The human mind is so old, its conditioning is of thousands of years. It takes a tremendous effort to detach yourself from the conditionings of the past. The conditionings are not only your past, that is a very small fraction; beyond your past is the collective past of humanity, which is almost infinite. And you have been programmed in this whole past – programmed in such a way that lust for power has become almost natural.
If you get power, then you want more. And there is no end to more. And the more power you want, the more people are going to lose their freedom. Your power is their loss of freedom. If you become ultimately powerful, they will become just slaves. So the real struggle is between the instinct of power and the value of freedom.
It is possible to prevent it happening in a small commune like this. Simple methods can change it. What you are suggesting is an ultimate change – a change of their awareness: they become so conscious that no lust for power can raise its head in their psyche. That is a goal of all spiritual growth, but it will happen when it will happen. Meanwhile, we have to take temporary steps. For example, decentralization of power; it should not be in one hand, it should be in many hands. It should not be concentrated but diluted.
There should be no hierarchy. Whatever one is doing, you may be a doctor, a professor, a president of a corporation, a farmer, a gardener – these are functions, they are not definitions of your individuality. The moment you come out of the classroom you are no longer a professor; you are a professor only while you are “professing,” you are a teacher only while you are teaching. The moment the function ceases, you are simply a human being. The function is not you. What you do is not your being.
This is my approach, and it is working. It was just because I was silent for three and a half years, and I was not in contact with the day-to-day activities of the commune, that Sheela could get into a power trip. But that too has been of immense significance for the whole commune to learn something – how people can go on becoming more and more attached to power and how power goes on corrupting them. And it is a vicious circle: power corrupts you, then corruption needs more power; otherwise you will be exposed, More power needs more corruption…
Osho,
What prevented the sannyasins from dealing with it earlier on their own?
There were many problems. First, the sannyasins have not gathered here for any political reason. They have come to me – to be just in my presence, in my silence, and to learn how to be silent and more conscious.
But meanwhile they are living in a political world that can harm them and so they must become political and…
No. It is better to get harmed than to become political, because that is more harmful than any other harm can be. And somebody, somewhere in the world, has to take the initiative not to be political, to be available to be harmed, and not ready to harm anybody.
These people have not come here to harm anybody. They have just come to live silently, and to seek, search, whatever is their reality. So because they were all focused on that program, it was possible for Sheela and her group to go on doing things and nobody bothered about it. If it was a political group, then there would have been conflicts, there would have been elections and there would have been fights, and she would have been thrown out long ago. But because these people are not in any way power oriented, and they were thinking that whatever Sheela is doing she is doing on my instructions – that’s what she was telling them.
Certainly she was receiving a few instructions from me, but it was at her discretion what instruction to use, what not to use, and it was in her hands to arrange any instruction that I had not given.
I have come to know just today that she was doing exactly what Nixon was doing: she has bugged houses, and you will be surprised – my house, my bedroom!
There was a leadership vacuum and…
Yes.
…she filled it. And that always happens when there's a vacuum – someone will fill it. It's simple.
No. But it has not harmed anybody, she simply befooled herself. Nobody is harmed by her bugging or taping peoples’ conversations, because these people and their telephone conversations are either simple gossips, or some loving words to a friend. Taping them is simply stupid; they are not plotting any conspiracy. But people who are power oriented are paranoid – they are always afraid that somebody is going to take their place.
Otherwise, bugging my room was absolutely stupid because she was the only one who used to come there – just for her work, if some advice was needed. There was no need to bug it. But she must have been afraid: perhaps somebody else enters without her knowing, informs me about what is going on – just paranoia. These people were not living happily; they were simply trembling inside, continuously afraid and looking everywhere with suspicion. And my people are meditating, working, enjoying, dancing, singing – they don’t have anything to bother about. That’s why she could carry on for three and a half years.
It became difficult for her only now, because I started speaking. My speaking created trouble for her.
Osho,
The day will come when you will stop speaking again. Will your sannyasins then have moved spiritually, politically, to where they can handle that kind of problem?
I am not going to stop speaking until I am dead. And who knows – I may speak even after that!
But in case you don't.
Just old habit.
Or they may hear you speaking even after death…
Yes.
…whether you do or not.
But I will prepare them – and they are preparing. It has been a good experience for them, so that it should not happen again – they should not be political, but they should be aware that they are not being politically cheated, that somebody does not become political on their account and take advantage of them. It will not happen now. I will prepare them for it too, that they should keep an eye open.
Decentralization of power into many people’s hands will be one of the basic things. Second, the people should be taught that they do their meditations, they rejoice in their life, they need not worry too much about it, but they should keep an eye open. It is their life and nobody should become so powerful that he starts interfering. Now, it is against human freedom to tape somebody’s phone, to bug somebody’s room – it is inhuman and ugly. And that too, of people who love you, who are not against you – there are no political parties here.
But people do that, we know they do that. Were you surprised?
No, I am not surprised. I am never surprised because I know human mind so clearly. It can do any stupid thing – there is no need to be surprised.
Osho,
I guess my hope is that by knowing that people will do any stupid, ego-oriented, power trip, that we can sometimes design strategies in advance to prevent that from happening.
I will be doing it. It will be prevented – it won’t happen again.
Decentralization of power is one way – other ways of…?
People have to – I am now going to constantly make them aware and alert. I am going to help them not to ignore what people in power are doing, and I am putting in power people who simply have no ambition, who have been connected with me. And I know them – they have no ambition of any kind. In fact, they are taking the posts unwillingly. And my third idea is that we will be rotating; there is no need for power to remain in one hand for a long period, so that the person starts taking it for granted that it is his.
So, rotate power, change people. And it is good, we are doing that rotation in other fields: professors are gardening; a gardener who has been a professor is back in the university. A therapist is in the carpenter’s workshop and a carpenter – my own carpenter who has made this chair is a Ph.D., he can go to the university any day and be the vice-chancellor.
So, we are doing that in every field. We were just not touching the power elite, for the simple reason that there were so many complications with the government, with law courts, so we wanted the people to deal with it who knew, who had been dealing with it, who had been going to the court. But now we will take that risk. It is better to take the risk, rather than give somebody an opportunity to become an egoist. It is against his spiritual growth to give him the opportunity to become an egoist.
Osho,
I assume that the rotation of roles does not include yourself?
I am not in any position, so rotation is impossible. I don’t hold any position; I am not even a member of the commune, I am not a voter. I live outside the city. I am just an outsider and I have been an outsider everywhere – in my own country I was an outsider, in my own family I was an outsider. To be an outsider seems to be my fate.
Who will make the appointments though, of the new leaders that are to be rotated?
There are councils. I can suggest my ideas to the councils, then it is up to them to function accordingly or they can decide on their own. I can simply give them my advice. I cannot dictate anybody.
And you feel that they are now sufficiently enlightened or self-empowered that they can make their own wise decisions?
They can. They can, certainly.
Without being too swayed by your recommendations or opinions?
No. They can, because they were the people who were not supportive of Sheela and her fascist group. They were in the group…
But yesterday they were not strong enough to remove Sheela – tomorrow they will be strong enough?
No, there was no question of removal. They had no idea that Sheela could be removed. Now they know it. But they were ready, and when Sheela asked them if they would like to go with her, they simply refused. They were simply feeling nauseous and sick at her behavior. Those who were with her have left with her. It is good; it is a good cleaning process. And only those who were against the whole process that she was doing have been left behind.
So now these people are more reliable; they will not allow anybody to do anything in the same way. And I am telling them that power should now be a rotated thing. Whenever you feel somebody is getting too interested in power, change them immediately.
I hope it works.
Yes, we can only hope – what works, nobody knows.
Osho,
Someone, perhaps it was Ezra Pound, once defined a slave as someone who waits for someone else to set them free, and it sounds a bit like the sannyasins had to wait for you to grant them the authority, permission, to exercise more self-governing power.
No. It is not permission, neither is it authority; it is just a little awareness which they were missing. And the moment I said it, they immediately understood. They danced in the streets as if they had come out of a concentration camp. All that they needed was just a little awareness that that too is their work: to keep alert that nobody becomes dictatorial, that their freedom is not interfered with.
And Sheela seems to be really insane. In fact, all power-oriented people are a little insane. A sane person would not like to enslave anybody. Just today I have come to know that Sheela and her group even tried to poison my physician. They wanted to poison two other persons who were close to me, for the simple reason that nobody should be close to me except Sheela. These three persons were in the way.
This did not surprise you?
No.
It surprises me.
No, it surprises you but it didn’t surprise me, because it is simple arithmetic – it can be understood. Anybody who wants to be dictatorial, who wants me not to be approachable by anybody else, would think of this. My physician was able to approach me to check me, so he could inform me about what is going on. My caretaker who brings food for me – she may bring information. My dentist who sometimes works on my teeth may tell me something. So there were only these three persons who were in any way capable of informing me.
And part of your awareness was the thought, “Hmm, perhaps Sheela might want to poison them?”
No, that never occurred to me. I was never thinking that.
Then you were surprised.
No, I was not surprised. I was simply sad – sad that a woman from whom we expected a more loving heart, should think in terms of killing people. I was simply sad – sad for Sheela, that she must be in a mess. The very idea is sickening. I am not angry at her, because I can understand these things can happen to power-oriented people.
Osho,
We could look at this event in terms of systems theory and ask in what way is Sheela a product of all of us? How are we all – including yourself – responsible for Sheela?
That’s true. In a way we are all responsible for everybody – not only for Sheela, but for Adolf Hitler, for Ronald Reagan, for Joseph Stalin. We are responsible for our whole humanity, because we are part of it and in some way or other we contribute to it.
Osho,
And my sadness and my concern is that we never seem to learn fast enough to anticipate and heal the paranoia or power drives that are everywhere. And so when someone such as yourself comes into the world with love or creativity, then throughout history it bumps up against…
It is true. And we are not only slow in learning, we are almost incapable of learning. We have not learned anything for these two thousand years. Our values and qualities of being human have not grown. We may have become more polished, more sophisticated – we may not crucify Jesus Christ, we may give him a good electric chair – but that makes no difference. We are the same people.
Osho,
How will your message and your practical strategy in the world be more durable, more wise?
No, I never think about the future. My concern is not the future.
Only you have security forces to preserve the future a little bit longer.
They were not my security forces. The commune thinks about the future – naturally – because they are going to live here longer than me; their children will be here, living longer than me. I have no interest in the future. My interest is totally in the present. My interest is in my people and whatever I can share with them – my experience – and in whatever way I can help them to become more conscious. The whole thing is how to deprogram them of the past and make them conscious in the present.
If my work is done in the present, it will take care of the future too, because the future does not come from anywhere else; it comes out of the present. Your present grows into the future, so if you are taking care of a rosebush now, without bothering about the flowers… If your care is enough, the flowers will come in their time – you need not bother about them. A person who thinks too much about the flowers, may perhaps neglect the care of the plant.
My interest is my people who are with me, and whatever I can do for them I am ready to do.
Osho,
I also feel some concern or sadness about the relationship between your people and the people of Oregon, and wish that there be a process there also that could be healing or de-escalating. Do you see that happening?
It is difficult, for the simple reason that I am not interested in converting people. Neither am I interested that the well should run after the thirsty, because that may make the thirsty even more afraid. A well coming toward you – I don’t think you will stand in your place, you will run away!
So my idea is that the thirsty have to come to the well.
Well, we're not talking about conversion; we're just talking about some live and let live.
That is happening – there is no problem in it. We are living, they are living – there is no problem in it. And we are living very happily. They are in worries and unnecessary tension, frightened, hostile, for no reason at all. When we have been welcoming them, saying, “You should come and see what we are doing here,” nobody comes. Even the governor has not the guts to come here. Three times we have invited him.
He speaks against us without knowing anything about us. The United States attorney declares our city illegal without ever thinking that we have changed a desert into a oasis, where five thousand people are living self-sufficiently. Perhaps the desert was according to the land-use laws. To turn it into an oasis, create enough food for five thousand people – enough vegetables, enough milk, and everything; to make houses for five thousand people with all modern facilities, the whole commune fully, centrally air-conditioned…
We have invited them: “You should come and see, and if you see that this city is not doing right or the land is being misused, just tell us. We are ready to change; we have no problem. If you say that this is not the right use of the land, show us. Otherwise we can show you what the right use of land is.” All the ranches around are poor, and they have been working on their ranches for hundreds of years. And we have been working for only four years on this ranch. And this was the worst ranch, perhaps in the whole of Oregon – because for fifty years nobody was ready to purchase it.
But you know we're talking about more than land-use; we're talking about attached, vulnerable egos. I'm hoping that, perhaps with Sheela gone, there might be some new strategies that you would have that would deal with it in some new ways.
We will simply go on doing our thing. And just by our transforming the desert, making our people happier, our laughter is going to reach them. And perhaps one day they may come to understand, and if they don’t understand, that is their problem.
We are not worried, and it is not a problem to us.
Well, it does occupy a lot of time, energy and money fighting these battles.
No, there is no problem, because we have four hundred sannyasins who are law experts – the biggest law firm in the world.
Wouldn't they rather be laughing than doing law though?
They are enjoying. They are enjoying, and we are going to fight. And we are winning the cases – and finally we are going to prove that we are strangers here, but we love the American constitution as something immensely valuable for humanity. And we are fighting for the constitution against the Americans – this is such an exciting project that we are going to do it.
That strategy appeals to me more than the name-calling.
Name-calling does not mean anything.
Well, it stirs up needless opposition sometimes.
That is helpful. I know my business! If you don’t disturb them you are ignored. They understand a certain language; that language has to be used against them.
And again you were not surprised at how much opposition and paranoia you ran into in Oregon?
We are not surprised at anything. It just proves that Oregon must be the most stupid state in America. A small community of five thousand people, and the whole state of Oregon should be afraid of us – what can we do?
But you know what you can do. You can shake their world apart.
That we are going to do! – that we are going to do. And if they want that we should not do that, then it is better they come to their senses. And rather than being hostile, just be friendly. We are friendly; we have no hostility against them.
No intentional hostility, but you constitute a threat to their attached egos.
That we will continue to do. Unless they start seeing the fact that they have to come here and understand us, we are going to hurt their egos more and more. And we are going to drag them up to the Supreme Court and we are going to expose them throughout the world. I am using the whole modern media…
I was silent, so they were not in much trouble – now they will be. For one month continuously, I have been giving interviews every day, to newspapers, magazines, radio, television, from all over the world – and this program is going to continue till we have exhausted every media, big or small, around the world. This small community certainly can create trouble for them.
Osho,
In addition to the creative and effective use of the constitutional law and of the media, I guess I'm wanting to hear more about some compassion and love for those people who are having trouble adjusting to the change.
We have immense compassion for them.
Do they know that? Do they feel that?
That is up to them. I can love you, you may not feel it; that does not mean that I don’t love you.
But then there are so many…
There is no necessity by law that because one person loves another, the other immediately feels it – it is not that way.
We have every compassion for them. We are ready to do anything for Oregon. And whatever we are doing, is doing for Oregon. We don’t have any hostility at all, no hate against anybody. But if the people who are in power in Oregon think that just by being in power they can misuse laws, take advantage of their power, go against the constitution, we are not going to tolerate it.
We love them. Still we will love them, but we will fight them.
There are so many ways of loving; are there perhaps some new forms of love that the community might extend outward?
What do you want – I should go and hug the governor? He will die, then and there! Then don’t say, “You are responsible. You killed the man.”
Well…that might be too much. Perhaps another way.
It is not too much. They are such cowards, and we have been continuously sending them invitations: “Be our guests. And before you do anything – and we are not saying not to do anything – before you do anything, just see and be acquainted with us and what we are doing, and then go to the court and do whatever you want to do.” None of them has been able to come here.
And they are not only cowards, they are very third-grade politicians. They had a private, secret meeting in which all the agencies of the state were present. And the meeting was concerning us, so we asked that at least one person – the mayor of Rajneeshpuram – could be there, just so that no misinformation was given. They did not allow anybody from here. They were discussing us and they didn’t allow a single person from here – they did not even allow the press.
The governor told the press to stay outside: “After the meeting I will tell you what has happened in the meeting.” He gave a press conference, and you will be surprised, everything that he said was a lie. It was not discussed in the meeting – not a single word of it. And what was discussed in the meeting, not a single word was told to the press.
How did you learn that?
Because a journalist somehow managed to get the secret file, and it was shown on the television; then we came to know. We contacted the journalist and got a copy of it. In the meeting they discussed, “We should keep the army alert that any moment they can be ordered to reach Rajneeshpuram. At the most, three hours notice will be given. So, within three hours they have to be ready to reach Rajneeshpuram.” Now, this is the result of our invitations to them, and this is your governor, your statesmen, politicians.
They lied to the press. And putting the army on alert, for five thousand people who are not doing any harm to anybody – what do you want we should do to show our love to them? We have been inviting them. If they cannot come, they can invite me – I am ready. But they are just chickens. At the most you can make good soup out of them!
Well, calling them chickens or stupid or third-rate politicians – which they may be – I'm not sure that helps.
Mm? We don’t care. We are so happy with ourselves, we don’t care at all. We are so utterly contented that it does not matter. We can fight a few cases here and there. And we are going to win, because the constitution is in our favor and the law is in our favor. So they will be simply proving themselves utter fools.
It happened just a few days ago: we had the annual festival – fifteen thousand people were here from all over the world. The tents we had made were special tents. We made them ourselves, and we had made them such that they can be used in the winter. So they were not ordinary tents, but still they were tents. And we have applied for a patent for the tents, that we have invented a tent which can be used in snow, which can be used in winter without any trouble, without any problem. The United States attorney immediately imposed a fine. [aside] How much fine did he impose?
Reply: One point four million dollars.
One point four million. We asked them, “Come and see before you impose a fine. They are not permanent structures, so they don’t need any permission. And you have not seen them – none of your officers have seen them. You have taken it for granted that they are permanent structures just because they’re winterized.”
But nobody came. And I told my people, “Just take a tent into the courtroom. Open the bag, put up the tent – it takes ten minutes; and then unfold it – it takes ten minutes – and ask the judge, ‘Can a permanent building be made in ten minutes and unfolded again in ten minutes? So this is a tent.’”
The judge simply dismissed the case and said, “This is absurd. This is a tent. Nobody can make a permanent building in ten minutes.”
Now, if this attorney has any dignity he should have jumped into the ocean! He must be a buffoon: you fine somebody one point four million dollars without any grounds, without even looking at what you are punishing them for – all their cases are such, and we are going to prove in each case that they are being behaving in a stupid way.
It is better for them that they should come. We have no antagonism against them. We have no political aspirations, we have no political parties; we are not concerned at all, just leave us alone – but they cannot leave us alone.
Osho,
But you won your point there, why call the man a buffoon? Why not let him be? You got what you wanted – why rub it in?
I have got – and we will be getting it more. They are going to be the losers on every point.
Osho,
You also, of course, are depending on there being first-rate politicians and judges who will follow the constitution, and fortunately there are such people. Then there are people who are half way between buffoon and first-rate.
Yes.
Many of those people are my friends, or like myself…easily impressed one way or the other, not knowing what to make of you, of the Ranch, hearing gossip, reading things, getting little pieces of information. I like that you're doing more interviews, more media – I hope that that gets more information out.
We will make more information available, and we know that there are judges who will be pressurized by the politicians, there are judges who are just fifty-fifty, cannot be relied upon. But there are a few judges who are one hundred percent fair. So we will drag the cases till we find the person who is a hundred percent fair.
And once we have got the hundred percent-fair judge, then there is no problem. Right now only my legal people are fighting; if it is needed, I am going to stand before the Supreme Court myself.
That would be a marvelous drama to witness!
Yes, it will be. It will be. And my whole circus will also be there.
Osho,
This morning you said that you're an ordinary man, and I know you meant in terms of your way of being and living. And yet, of course, you don't always look and act like an ordinary man – why is that?
Because everybody is extraordinary here in this world, so I have to look a little separate from the extraordinary people. And because I am being just an ordinary person, I have to use a gold and diamond watch, a Rolls Royce limousine – just to be out of the crowd of the extraordinary people.
I promised myself that I was going to be one of the few people who didn't ask you about the Rolls Royces. But I did ask my mechanic before coming, “What should I talk about? What should I ask this man?” And he said, “If he's going to buy expensive cars, why does he buy Rolls Royces? It's not a car: it's stodgy furniture.” So he wants you to buy Maseratis.
No. They don’t come close to Rolls Royces. No car comes close to it.
For you it's not stodgy furniture?
I love it!
Osho,
I work as a psychotherapist and I've been influenced by Carl Rodgers and Rollo May and also by Maurice Friedman who is a sort of interpreter of Martin Buber. I was wondering how psychotherapy would look in the context of your buddhafield? What would I see that is different? What could we find that we could point to that would say, “Aha! There's something different here, different even from relatively enlightened existential psychotherapy”?
It is different, and it can enrich psychotherapy tremendously to understand the difference. All psychoanalytical schools are very superficial. Psychoanalysis – the very word – does not go beyond mind. And man’s real being is beyond mind.
Well, the transpersonal psychotherapists certainly would agree in principle to what you're saying, and many of us have long ago put psychoanalysis behind us.
Even the transpersonal psychoanalysts have no idea of what meditation is. It is not transpersonal, it is transcendental. It is a state of no-mind. And psychoanalysis goes on and on, on the circumference – moving, analyzing, and it never reaches the center.
In the East, man has been working on the mind for at least five thousand years. In the West, psychoanalysis is not even one hundred years old; it is just childish. Patanjali is five thousand years old, but he does not bother about psychoanalysis. He simply says there is no need to be bothered about it. Simply become aware of the content of your mind – the thoughts, the dreams or whatever is passing through. And just remain a witness, without any judgment, “This is good, this is bad.” You have nothing to do with it; it is just traffic that is moving, and you are standing by the side of the road, just watching without any judgment.
Slowly the traffic becomes thinner, and a moment comes when the traffic simply disappears. When the traffic completely disappears, a new experience of no-mind, a new experience of simple awareness – awareness aware of itself, because there is nothing else to be aware of.
Once this awareness – you can call it enlightenment, you can call it total consciousness – once this is realized, you are beyond all mental problems because you are beyond mind. Now the mind cannot affect you at all.
Psychoanalysis continuously tries to analyze the content of the mind, to find out the symbols, the meaning, and somehow…
Osho,
But many therapists nowadays have put that aspect of psychoanalysis behind them and, at least in principle – perhaps not always with the ability, but at least in principle – attempt to work with clients in the way that you're describing. And I propose it to you as a research project, to study the process of psychotherapy as it occurs here, and to see how it is different from…certainly from psychoanalysis, but also from psychotherapy as done by people who have done extensive Zen meditation or whatever else.
Just one thing: you think the people who are doing transpersonal psychoanalysis have something, at least intellectually, about meditation. The only criterion is: have these people themselves gone beyond problems? Do they have worries, do they have tensions, do they have sadnesses, do they feel things that everybody feels and goes through? – the boredom, despair, meaninglessness, anguish.
If they don’t feel these things at all and don’t show any indication of it, and they don’t have any desire to know God – because that desire is just a projection of a child for a father figure. If they don’t desire for any paradise – because paradise is only desired by beggars – if one is content and fulfilled, he is in paradise. So it is not a question of intellectual understanding. You have to watch these people and you have to watch their patients. Years in psychoanalysis and where are they?
There is not a single person in the whole world who can be said to be completely psychoanalyzed. A strange profession. And there are people who have been analyzed for twelve years by many analysts, and they just go on and on, just moving round and round, reaching nowhere.
The only criterion is: the person whose quest is fulfilled, who is not in any inquiry anymore, who has no question about existence, about himself, about anything, who has found himself, who has found the ultimate answer for everything – and that will show in his every act, in his every gesture. It is not a question of intellectual conceivability, comprehension, presentation. You will have to look at the person and at his existential status: if his wife falls in love with someone, whether he feels jealousy or not. If his wife is happy with someone, the man who is enlightened will be immensely happy, because he always wanted his wife to be happy. It does not matter if she is happy with someone else, what matters is that she is happy.
Osho,
I'm also involved in the training of psychotherapists, and it would be of immense value if you could produce some video tapes of therapists here working with people in this way, so that I and other teachers of psychotherapy could show them to students.
Yes, that can be done very easily, there is no problem in it. Anything that you feel will be useful to anybody, anywhere, just suggest it to my university people and they can produce it.
And, as your university progresses, if there were people and money and time and energy to do some research attempting to describe this work, it would be good as part of your public relations to reach out to the community of psychologists, to say, “Here, we are serious. We do this work.”
That’s perfectly right. It can be done. It can be done very easily – there is no difficulty.
Osho,
Back to the issue of building the community in ways that power can be shared and decentralized. Another method – I wonder if it's being done – is to have not just informal discussions amongst the people, but even some formalized processes for reviewing decision-making, power usage and misusage, some way of self-review. The group practice that I'm in, we meet for eight hours once a month and for one hour every week to look at what's happening among us.
Yes, that can be easily done. That’s perfectly good and helpful.
Again, it distributes the power and it builds a skill into people…to look at what's happened in terms of awareness, really.
It can be of immense help. Thank you for the suggestion!
Osho,
In about two weeks I'll be making my third trip to the Soviet Union, to talk with psychologists and others there, and just as you struggle with the citizens of Oregon, some of us are struggling with the citizens of the Soviet Union. I keep thinking, “What can I do there? How can I make some difference? What can I say?” If I were a sannyasin, would I be better equipped to go there and to talk?
Certainly. And it is never too late.
I told my friends if I wasn't back in a week, to send help!
When are you going to the Soviet Union?
October third.
Because I have my underground sannyasins there.
I read an article about some of them in the Soviet press that…
Yes, they are writing against me. They are persecuting my people. They have banned my books, they have taken my books away from people, and they have been harassing them. The KGB has been calling and continuously interrogating them. But it doesn’t matter; my people are very excited and interested. I can inform them at least to meet you.
You must have been amused to hear yourself accused of working for the CIA.
Yes, in Russia it is known that I am working for the CIA; in America I am working for the KGB! Perhaps…
You're the most conspicuous double agent that there's been!
Perhaps I am working for both, or both are working for me. But it is interesting – I don’t think any man is in such a position, who will be condemned by America, by Russia, who will be condemned by Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Jainism. I don’t think there is anyone who will be condemned by everybody. But to me…
And by the Maserati dealers of America.
Yes. To me, it means that whatever I am doing and whatever I am saying must have something of immense value. Otherwise, so many people would not simultaneously be against me. That gives me enough courage, encouragement.
Osho,
I sense that you do derive energy and excitement from the controversy.
Yes, I certainly derive energy.
Osho,
While you're a courageous man, I become worried when I see so much hostility – the guns.
No, it will go. It is just natural, human nature; it will go. It cannot stay long, because in fact there is no base for it. If there was any base for it, I would have been concerned, but there is no base. From our side we don’t have any hostility. Our hands are always outstretched and ready to meet with their hands. So it will just take a little time – it will go, it is not to be worried about.
But when you are in the Soviet Union, talking with Soviet psychoanalysts, just mention me. And if they have not read my books, tell them that their education about psychoanalysis will remain incomplete, and if they ever come out of the Soviet Russia they should come to this red commune. Soviet Russia has only a red flag; we are all red people here. They should come here.
I will extend that invitation, and I know a few Soviets who have a particular interest in the kind of experiment that you are doing and who…
Just give them the invitation on my behalf. And here in America, anybody who wants to come, just give him also on my behalf – and my people are very hospitalizing. He will not be…
[laughter about the use of the word]
He will not be disappointed – they will hospitalize him!
I hope you'll allow me to translate that into hospitable when I…
No! This way it is better. We have a hospital for the guests.
Osho,
When I return and I tell people of the hospitality and warmth that I felt here, and that the people did seem conscious and alive and free and autonomous, then some of my friends – the eternal skeptics – will say, “Oh, well, Tom is always kind of gullible, eager to please, believes in things. They must have sold him too.” What shall I say to them?
Just tell them it is true. I am almost a second-hand car salesman – just tell them that. I can sell any kind of car!
Osho,
If I were really shrewder and tougher, what tough question would I ask you now?
You can ask any.
No, I'm asking you for help here!
Just try.
What do you see as the unresolved problems in running the Ranch, in enlightening and liberating the sannyasins – what's next? How must the work proceed next? What new form do you envision? Just decentralization of power, certainly, is one.
I never think of tomorrow. After talking to you I will go to sleep and forget everything, and if tomorrow comes, then I will have it – but it will be again today. So I have managed only for today. Tomorrow has no place in my life, in my thinking, in my vision. One day is enough.
Today was a pretty big day for many people here.
Yes, it is good. Come back again whenever you can find time.
Thank you. I will.
Good.