The Last Testament Vol 2 13

Thirteenth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 2 by Osho.
You can listen, download or read all of these discourses on

Dieter Kronzucker,
ZDF-TV, Germany

Glad to see you.
Thank you very much that you gave us the opportunity to talk with you.
Come again and again.
And we need just a few minutes until he has his camera installed, after he has filmed your entrance here.
And I have a question. This is for a program of about twenty minutes. We have already done a ten-minute report about the activities in your city and now we want to do about ten minutes' interview. I can imagine that there are questions where you need long answers, but there might be questions where the answers could be relatively short.
I will try my best, but I have to give you a full answer.
You can edit it, there is no problem. But I must do justice to your question.
I can understand that. It is just that I had the opportunity to look at interviews you have done, and there were long interviews with beautiful answers, and then because of the necessity to shorten it, you then see edited versions that sometimes omit some parts that might be very essential. I hope that will not be the case in our interview.
It will not be.
You have been quite silent to the outside world for four years – in words, I mean. Why did you choose now to talk to the sannyasins again, and also to grant interviews like this?
I have been silent as a device to get rid of all those people who were hanging around me because of my words. Their approach to me was intellectual, of the head, and my work is concerned with the heart. The moment I became silent, they slowly, slowly dropped out. When I found that only people remained who need not cling in any way to my words – they are absolutely contented just by my presence and silence – then I started speaking. These are my people with whom I want to speak.
But you also speak to the press now.
I am speaking to the press now because my people are around the world, and I am not going anywhere. And my words have to reach to everybody, not only to my sannyasins. There are millions of other people who would like to know what I think.
In such a critical moment in the history of humanity, when things are really in a very dangerous state – a Third World War could happen and could destroy the whole human life; AIDS is spreading, and without a Third World War it could destroy almost two-thirds of human beings. It is not the moment for me to be silent. I should say something. There are many people who may not be sannyasins, but who would like to know my approach, what can be done to prevent this calamity that is just there on the horizon.
Would you like all the people in the world to be sannyasins, or are they a chosen few?
It depends on them. I don’t have any desire that anybody should be a sannyasin. It is enough for me if somebody is available to me, that he is ready to listen, ready to understand. I do not expect anybody to believe in me; just give consideration to what I say. That’s enough. If that gives you the urge to become a sannyasin, that is your decision.
Your teaching is very philosophical for the uneducated mind. So do you think that your teaching is more fit for the best educated, and for the more affluent?
Certainly, because according to me religion is the highest luxury in human existence. The poor cannot understand the music of Mozart; that does not mean that the music of Mozart should not exist. It only means that the poor man should be raised to a situation where he can understand Mozart. The poor cannot understand Picasso, but that is no fault of Picasso.
I am trying my best, to my uttermost ability, to make things as simple as possible. I do not use any philosophical jargon, I simply use words that everybody uses, but still I know it is difficult for many people to understand. It is not only that they are poor, not only that they are uneducated – even for many who are not poor and not uneducated it is difficult, because they have such closed minds, so many prejudices. They only hear, they don’t listen. They don’t allow an opportunity for anything new that goes against their conditioning.
So, many will not understand, but that does not disturb me. If only the most intelligent part of humanity understands me, it will be enough to save this world. Those who do not understand me, don’t count.
So you don't think much of people that try to soften the poverty in the world without remedy?
I do not. I think that they are criminals. And it is because of those people that poverty has existed up to now. We would have destroyed it long before, but they go on consoling the poor, they go on softening their suffering. They go on helping them somehow not to revolt.
Can you give a few names of those people? Examples?
All religions have done it, without exception. Jesus Christ, Moses, Mohammed, Gautam Buddha, Krishna, and their followers – their popes, their rabbis and their shankaracharyas, and their Ayatollah Khomeiniacs – they have all been doing that. They have been keeping the poor, poor, by giving him hope. That hope is nothing but opium.
You don't believe in religions. After your lecture this morning, I understand that you also do not believe in God.
You are called “the blessed one.” Who blessed you then?
I do not believe in anything. It is not a question of God – I do not believe in believing. My approach is to know, and knowing is a totally different dimension. It starts from doubt, it does not start from believing. The moment you believe in something you have stopped inquiring. Belief is one of the most poisonous things to destroy human intelligence. All religions are based on belief; only science is based on doubt. And I would like the religious inquiry also to be scientific, based on doubt. So we need not believe, but we can come to know someday the truth of our being and the truth of the whole universe.
We just finished with the first part.
[to the crew] Are we ready again? Okay.
You have this beautiful and very efficient settlement here in Oregon. Could it be anywhere in the world, or do you like to have it in America?
It could be anywhere in the world. I would like it everywhere; already we have communes around the world, and they are increasing every day. And I do not believe in countries – America or Germany or India. That is nonsense. Humanity is one, and it is time we should declare that all these maps are the creations of stupid politicians.
The earth is undivided, and we are all one. I would like that everybody burns his passport, his green card, and everybody declares, “This whole earth is mine.”
But here in Oregon you have some harassments with the officials in this respect.
I am enjoying them.
Do you mind having these harassments? Or are they just nuisances and you are aloof?
No, I don’t mind, and they are not a nuisance. They are harassed, I am simply enjoying. They cannot harass me, nobody can harass me. By harassing me, they are unnecessarily harassed. I don’t even think about them; they are not worth giving any consideration.
Is it that you play with words, that you like to use words just to make fun of other people? Or is it that you think that only with words, instead of in silent communication, your philosophy and your teaching can be transmitted to the people?
Through silence it can be translated and transmitted only to people who know what silence is, who are meditative, who are in tune with me. Then there is a possibility of transferring. But people who don’t know anything of inner silence need words. And the problem is that no word is capable of translating the inner experience. All words become lies the moment you start saying something true. Truth is beyond words.
So what I do with words is to demolish prejudices, and I am really hard in demolishing prejudices. I am not concerned with the people I attack; I am concerned with my people. When I attack Jesus Christ I am attacking the Christian who is hidden behind my people. I have nothing to do with Jesus Christ; he has done no harm to me, and we have never been in any communication – friendly or otherwise. But every one of my people is carrying something of Jesus Christ, something of Adolf Hitler, and something of Buddha. I have to shock these people, and only through shocking them can they be awakened.
Do you mind sometimes when your teaching is misunderstood?
No, I never mind, because I always expect that it will be misunderstood.
If you decide to go into silent communication, or to go away from the sannyasins, would you mind if the movement of the neo-sannyasins would then be dissipated?
I don’t mind. I am absolutely non-serious about everything. I take life just as a play. It is good…
We have to repeat that, I'm sorry.
[a brief conversation between the crew and the questioner]
I'm sorry I interrupted you.
Nothing to be – he had told you, you didn’t listen!
That is because I tried to listen to you.
I am answering you, and still listening to him! You can ask the question again, but my answer will be different.
I was asking that, in case you were to leave the movement of the sannyasins for your own reasons, would you mind if this movement then dissipated? Or would you like it to grow by itself?
I have no desires or anything as far as the future is concerned. I am a man of the moment. This moment is so groovy, who cares for tomorrow? If they decide to go on their way, they are independent people. If they decide to remain together here, they are completely free to do that.
I have never imposed anything on them, and I have not made them a crowd. I have made every effort that every sannyasin remains an individual, independent, so whatsoever they feel like doing they will do. Who am I to decide about their future? I don’t even decide about my future, because the future is not yet.
And the people who decide about the future always remain in misery, because the future has no obligation to fulfill your desires. The future goes in its own way. And we are such a tiny part in this immense universe, that to have a desire that things should follow according to me is simply idiotic. I am not interested at all in the next moment. Whatsoever happens in the next moment, if I am here I will enjoy, or if I am somewhere else, I will enjoy it there.
You had asked that I don’t believe in God, yet my people call me “the blessed one.” It is not a question of somebody else blessing me; it is a question of the moment you realize your being, that very realization makes you the blessed one. Just as there are miserable ones – who makes them miserable? There are suffering ones, who makes them suffering? I am the blessed one, not because of somebody else’s blessing but because of my own realization.
This morning in your lecture, I thought I understood that you were against politicians in the world. If you would compare a socialist state and a capitalist state, in which would you think the sannyasin movement could grow better?
In a communist state, not even a socialist. It is growing better in the Soviet Union, for the simple reason – are you changing [the tape]? Change it.
We are finished, because we…
Hm? He cannot be finished. I know your cameraman. He cannot be finished. A German, and finishing so soon, does not look right!
Well, it is true that if one tries to combine what you said, then you need more than ten minutes.
I certainly need. But you can manage in two parts, in three parts. You can manage – and you have to manage, because Germany somehow is my country.
I have more sannyasins in Germany than anywhere else. And the German youth is more in tune with me than in any other country.
Why is that, do you think?
It is a little difficult, because I will not have any proof for it. I have been a German in a few lives, so I know the German spirit.
Can you give the centuries of the lives you have spent there?
I can give you a reference. You can ask Eva Renzi – she has once been my wife in the past, and she is still behaving like a wife towards me. Ask her.
In another interview you were using the word circus. What does it mean for you, circus?
It means to me that I do not want life to be taken seriously. Seriousness is a kind of psychological disease. Life has to be a fun. Life has to be a rejoicing, a dance, a song, a love affair. In such a small life, being serious is simply wasting the opportunity. That’s what I meant when I said it is a circus – it should be a circus everywhere, and we should turn everything into playfulness.
But people are so heavy and long-faced, and so burdened and carrying loads on them; and life is so short, soon you will be reaching your grave. Before reaching the grave, have a little dance, a little drink. That’s what I mean by circus. My people are living in a circus twenty-four hours a day.
Rejoicing is my religion. All the old religions were renouncing: renounce this, renounce that, go on renouncing till you are completely juiceless. Your saints are just bones, nothing else is in them. If your saints have gone to heaven, then I am not going to heaven at all, because what am I going to do with those bored people? Then the best people will be in hell. All the painters, all the poets, all the dancers, all the actors, all the story-writers, novelists, all creative people, all the lovers, all the drunkards, all the gamblers, they will be there – colorful people.
I don’t think hell a bad place. If it exists, then it is the right place to go. It is worth visiting. Heaven will be simply boredom – saints sitting under the trees, doing nothing, because there is nothing to do for the whole eternity. They will get fed up. In hell we have everything – Chinese restaurants, Italian spaghetti, we have everything.
If God has any sense I don’t think that he will be in heaven; he will be in hell. If he has any intelligence, then he will be meeting beautiful people there. Hell…
What do you think of people who spend a lot of money to buy Picasso and Salvador Dali?
Beautiful people, beautiful people.
Do you like the paintings of those…?
I like. I like everything that is beautiful, creative. It contributes to life, it makes life worth living. Only a few people have contributed to life’s beauty; others are simply a burden on the earth.
I would like everybody to know something of painting, something of music, something of dancing. Every educational institution, rather than simply teaching mathematics and physics and chemistry and geography and history, should pay a little more attention to dancing, to singing, to painting, to music, to sculpture, because those are the things which will make life more beautiful.
Salvador Dali or Picasso – they are our cherished geniuses. So whatsoever price one pays is not enough. It is never enough!
You were talking of Mozart before…
Do you listen to Mozart sometimes now?
I listen. I only listen to music; whenever I have time, I listen to music.
Can I put just two more questions, because I know…
Is the whole world a stage for you? Like a theater? Or is it that you put a stage on the world?
No, the world is a stage. Idiots have made it serious. I want it to become natural again – what it is, is a stage; it is a circus, and such a beautiful circus, with animals, birds, trees, flowers. I am not making it a circus, it is a circus. People have forgotten, I am simply reminding them.
If your followers are the artists in this circus, would you mind leaving this place in Oregon and going to another place with them?
I am a very spontaneous person. I can do anything. I am unpredictable. One day, suddenly, I left India. Nobody had ever thought… One day I can suddenly appear in Germany.
Do you think I am afraid?
No, you will be one of my hosts. Why should you be afraid of me?
What is Germany for you and your movement?
I respect the German guts. It is one of the countries in the world that has more guts than anybody else. If the German youth and German courage could make a madman like Adolf Hitler become almost victorious and defeat the whole world, the German courage can do anything possible.
And it is not a coincidence that they are attracted to me. Once a German comes to me, he immediately becomes part of me, because he has the courage to take the risk.
There are English people who will think a thousand times to be or not to be – wishy-washy. Germans are simple, straightforward, not phony. Americans are phony, plastic; you cannot depend on them. But you can depend on the German.
But they take everything seriously.
Once they come to me they simply change immediately. I have many Germans here, and once they have come to me they have never left me. Others have been coming and leaving, but Germans, once they have come to me, have simply forgotten everything. They are with me. And they are not serious – they have even started understanding jokes.
Thank you very much.
Great! Yes.
Excuse the inconvenience…
No, no, nothing…
…but we have to do a few pictures.
No problem.
Crew member: Well, we've got more material than…
You have got more material? That’s good.
I didn't realize that you would be thinking about the cuts we still have to do.
I have to think about everything.
I will ask three questions again, but they are only for the camera.
You used the word circus for the world. What does it mean?
It means that the world is just a playground, there is nothing serious in it.
I will just repeat the questions.
Is the whole world a stage for you, or are you…
Yes, the whole world is a stage to me, and I am enjoying it so immensely that I don’t think anybody has ever enjoyed the world so deeply and so totally. I don’t have any idea of guilt, so I can enjoy anything. I don’t have any idea of sin, so I can enjoy everything. And I am not following anybody so the whole world is available to me. I am not under any discipline; I am a totally free person.
And that’s my teaching to my sannyasins – be free, enjoy as much as you can. Fill your life with so much joy that when death comes there is no problem to relax into it: you have enjoyed so much, now it is time to relax and go to eternal sleep. So, to my people, death is not a problem. Death is a problem only to those who cannot enjoy life. Then death comes and they are in trouble. They have not yet lived, and death has come.
To us it is just the opposite. Any moment death is welcome, because we are living every moment so deeply that each moment is being turned into an eternity. If death comes the next moment, it is perfectly good. We have done everything, we have loved everybody. We have enjoyed every dance, we have sung every song; now what more is there? Now we will enjoy death too.
Only my people die laughing, and only my people give a send-off to a dead sannyasin dancing. When they put him on the funeral pyre, all my sannyasins are dancing, rejoicing. What more can we do for a man who has lived fully? This is the best send-off.
Thank you very much.
Come again. And not just for ten minutes!

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