The Last Testament Vol 2 10

Tenth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 2 by Osho.
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James Conaway,
Washington Post, Washington, DC, United States

Glad to meet you.
I'm interested in the public lands in the west, and would like to ask you some questions on that first. The United States government owns a vast amount of land in the west. Some of this land is within your domain here on the ranch. What do you think of the policies of the United States government with regard to land management?
The philosophy of democracy is totally against the idea of governments owning anything: land, schools, libraries, universities. That idea – that the government should own everything, that no individual should be the owner – is basically communist. It is a very subtle psychology to destroy the individual: if an individual’s ownership is taken away he becomes a beggar.
At least in America, the government should not own any land. That is part of a democratic approach. There should be no kind of nationalization on any level. All nationalization is communist. Every individual should be free in every possible way from government rule, government domination. The universities should not be owned, the schools, the colleges should not be owned. The government has no business interfering in people’s lives, their development, their intelligence. Each university should have its own individuality; each school should have its own individuality.
In a democracy the question of ownership does not arise; individuals should be the owners of everything that exists. The government is simply a functioning body. It is not the master, it is the servant of the people. It should see that everything is going well – that no individual is being exploited in any way, that no individual is being enslaved, that no individual is being interfered with.
The function of the government in a democracy is to protect the individual – his freedom, his ownership, his possibilities of growth – and to help him. The government should not become a partner, a competitor, in business, in land, in factories, in anything. The government is just a functional body like the post office. Now, should the post office start owning land and factories? Or the board that runs airplanes or railway lines? The government should not own anything, because that ownership makes the politician too powerful.
In Oregon almost half of the land is owned by the federal government. This is simply ugly, undemocratic. They wanted – particularly the vice-president was interested – to own the whole of Oregon. And the federal government is angry with us because they were interested in this land, too. And this is a big area, 126 square miles. But they were trying to give just a little bit of compensation, and the owner was not ready to take it. It was for sale for decades, and because we purchased it and gave the right price for it, the state government is angry, the federal government is angry. This is strange – it seems we are not living in America, we are in the Soviet Union.
Your sentiments are similar to some of the conservative ranchers who live around here, since they also feel that the government shouldn't own land and should stay out of the lives of individuals. Considering that, and the fact that you have made this land here very productive in the last four years, why is it that so many people dislike you?
There are a thousand and one reasons. A man like me can only be disliked or liked but cannot be ignored. You either have to love me or you have to hate me, there is no third alternative.
The people of Oregon, particularly the neighbors close to this property, have reasons to be against me. First, their animal nature – every animal has a territorial imperative; we are strangers, the ordinary human mind always feels afraid of anything that is strange, unknown, unpredictable. We are not Christians, we don’t believe in any religion. We don’t believe in any God, we don’t believe in any heaven and hell. Our basic approach is that this life itself can be paradise, why bother about anything else? If there is a heaven we will enjoy it, if there is a hell we will transform it too.
This land was just a desert when we came here. Only one single house and that, too, dilapidated. We have made it an oasis – we have created dams, we have created lakes, we are creating a small river – we have made it green. Now there are fully scientifically equipped houses for five thousand sannyasins, all centrally air-conditioned. Never before in history has there been such a commune – creative, intelligent, independent. We have our own school, we have our own university, we have our own hospital. Naturally they are very jealous.
This land was lying here for fifty years. Nobody cared about it – and suddenly we come from outer space and change the whole side! And we live comfortably, we live luxuriously – because I am the first religious man who respects luxury, who respects money. I am not in favor of poverty: I do not want a single individual to be poor. But I am not against capitalism. I want capitalism to spread so much and create so much wealth that there is no need for anybody to be poor. I don’t want to distribute poverty equally; I want so much abundance that there is no need for hoarding.
They have been here for hundreds of years, for generations, and they have not been able to create anything. And within four years we have created a place which can compete with any city. In just four years we have created a place, against all hostility, against every hindrance from the government. We are fighting so many cases in the courts, but nothing is going to prevent us.
They are jealous, and jealousy turns into anger, turns into hostility. If they were a little intelligent they would have come here – but they won’t come. They should come and see what we have done. They can also do it. We are available to help them: we will welcome them, whatever we are doing here. We are self-sufficient in our food, our vegetables, our fruits, our milk products. They can be also – they have better land than we have.
This was completely a desert and we are bent on making it one of the most lush, green parts of the world. They can learn it too, but rather than coming here, rather than being friendly, they are trying in every way to destroy us. This is simply an animal attitude. It is nothing strange, it is expected. But they are being defeated in every court, and we are going to fight to the very end.
A very strange situation: we are fighting for the American constitution against the Americans, because the Americans are doing things which are against the American constitution. And I have always had respect for the American constitution. It is the only constitution in the whole world which has some hope for humanity and the Americans are destroying it in every possible way.
I had come here thinking that I was going to a country which is contemporary. It is not so. In India there was no problem: I knew it was an ancient, rotten, dead country. But America is so new, fresh, young. Has it gotten rotten within just three hundred years? Has it forgotten completely what it stands for?
It is disgusting to see President Ronald Reagan trying to enforce prayer in schools. Then why are you against communism? Then why not hand over the whole country to the Soviet Union? Why take on unnecessary troubles? This is against the constitution of America. Religion should not interfere in the state; the state should not interfere in religion. Trying to introduce prayer in every school, every educational institution, in colleges, universities, is a tremendous interference with freedom.
Just a few days ago I heard that a Boy Scout – who was one of the topmost, he had won many awards – was refused promotion because he said, “I do not believe in God.” Now, this is strange. What do Scouts have to do with God? And if an intelligent boy says, “I do not believe in God,” he is thrown out, he cannot be a member – it is something absolutely necessary that you believe in God. This is strange, absolutely strange!
Nobody can prove what God is. Nobody has ever been able to give any proof, any argument that is logical, rational, about God. It is simply a fiction, the greatest lie that man has invented. And you are trying to indoctrinate your children into lies?
Just now I heard that one of the most important Christian fundamentalists, Jerry Falwell, is trying to have the Bible recognized by the government, by the people, as infallible. And the Bible is such a rotten book! If the Supreme Court is fair, they will make the Bible x-rated. It is pornography, pure pornography. It is simply ugly. You can find everything that is ugly there: sodomy, people making love to animals, homosexuality, all kinds of perversions. And Jerry Falwell says every single word in the Bible is pure truth – even Adam and Eve are not fictions, not a story, but a historical fact.
Now, in the twentieth century, in the most developed, educated, literate, democratic country, such idiots have influence – tremendous influence – over people, over government, over the president, over the senators in the parliament. It hurts. It really gives me great sadness.
This man is saying that abortions should be illegal in a world which is already overpopulated, too overpopulated. Where one thousand people are dying every day in Ethiopia. Where fifty percent of Indians will soon be going into the same situation. Where the third world is all poor, undernourished. These people go on saying that abortion should be illegal. The pope is doing it in South Africa, where the birth rate is the highest in the world, and the people are so poor. He is propagating that birth control methods should not be used, they are against God.
But these people have a strange kind of God. This man Falwell is saying that homosexuality should be prohibited, that AIDS is a punishment from God for homosexuals. I am amazed. For the first time God seems to be in favor of women! Lesbians are not suffering from AIDS. For the first time, God is no longer a male chauvinist.
Why are you so concerned about AIDS?
I am concerned because it is going to destroy the whole of humanity. It is far more dangerous than your nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons may never be used – for the simple reason that it means global suicide, and nobody wants global suicide. A war is significant only when you can be victorious and somebody can be defeated. If in a war there is nobody who is victorious and nobody who is defeated, war has lost all meaning.
We are living in a postwar era. The Third World War will be continuously talked about, so that people can remain frightened and the politicians can go on doing whatever they want to do. But it is not going to happen. What is going to happen is AIDS, which is in fact a religious disease for which your God is responsible, your pope is responsible, Reverend Jerry Falwell is responsible, Billy Graham is responsible – because these are the people who have perverted the human mind.
Homosexuality was born in monasteries, because you are forcing men to live together without any women. There are monasteries where not a single woman has entered for one thousand years. And women have to be kept away in their nunneries, where men cannot enter. Now, you cannot go against nature. Your body does not know that you are a Catholic, that you are a fundamentalist Christian, that you are a Hindu or a Mohammedan. Your body knows nothing. The body does not know that you have taken a vow of celibacy. The body goes on producing blood, bones, sex energy. It knows nothing about celibacy.
God himself is not celibate. Not only that, he is a criminal: he made the poor Virgin Mary pregnant. And the whole company of God – God, the Holy Ghost, the Son – are all men. It is a gay company, a gay club. And if anybody should suffer from AIDS it is those three people. Or they may have died already, nobody has seen them for so long!
This man Falwell is saying that AIDS is a punishment for homosexuality. And homosexuality is created by religions all over the world, they are responsible for AIDS. The idea of celibacy is something that should be made criminal, because only impotence can be celibate. So let impotent people be celibate. How can a man who is really alive be celibate? In graves you can be celibate – be celibate! Nobody is bothering you.
But a living man, full of energy and life – sex is part of life. To cut off sex means to destroy life from the very roots. And to stop people from loving, to separate man and woman is against nature. AIDS is not a punishment from God, it is the responsibility of the religions and their priests. All those people should be immediately behind bars, because they are continuously trying to do the same. Still they are preaching celibacy and nobody can prove medically that celibacy is possible. There has never been anybody who was celibate; they were all hypocrites.
You cannot go against nature. If you try, then there will be perversions, and AIDS is the ultimate outcome of all kinds of perversions.
Wouldn't celibacy be one way of avoiding AIDS?
Celibacy cannot avoid AIDS, it has brought it. What are you going to do with your sex? Then the churches should start propagating masturbation. That seems to be the only safe method to get rid of sex energy. If celibacy is going to be the safeguard, then you will turn the whole of humanity into perverted people.
Then I would suggest to women to become lesbians: let men be celibate, let man be whatever he wants – homosexual, sodomist. Women, all women, should become lesbians. At least they should be protected from AIDS, one thing. And every hospital should start collecting semen from men who are still free of AIDS, so lesbians can be injected – artificial insemination for the future of humanity. These men who are celibate and perverts and Christian monks will all be going down the drain.
This is ostensibly a Christian country. I am interested to know why you chose America and why you chose the American west.
I have not chosen anything in my life. It is America that has chosen me; it is this Wild West that has chosen me. America needs me, I don’t need America. And I am going to fight against all these idiots. I challenge them publicly to discuss with me. They go on talking nonsense to idiots and retarded Christians. They cannot prove God, they cannot prove that homosexuality is not the product of their monasteries, they cannot prove that Jesus was the son of a virgin woman, they cannot prove…
This man Falwell is saying that each single word, even the miracles described in the Bible – Jesus walking on water, raising the dead back to life – are historical facts. If this man was able to turn water into wine, why not turn the whole ocean? You know the secret – why turn only a bottle into wine? And in fact, a man who turns water into wine is a criminal. He is creating drugs. The real miracle will be that he should turn wine into water. That would be understandable. He is raising the dead, but in his life there must have been many dead people. He raised only one person, who was his personal friend. It all seems to be tricks, befooling people – that man was not dead, he was pretending to be dead.
Just think of the fact that not a single contemporary Jewish scripture even mentions the name of Jesus Christ. Do you think that a man who walks on water, a man who cures all kinds of diseases just by touch – the blind start seeing, the lame start running, the dead man becomes alive – do you think such a man will remain without being reported? If he is not news, then what can be news? But there is not a single reference in any Jewish book.
And he was a Jew, he was never a Christian. That you have to remember. He was born a Jew, he lived a Jew, he died a Jew. He had never heard the words Christ or Christian. Their boy was doing such great things and they crucified him! It does not make sense. They should have raised him up, they should have accepted him as their awaited messiah – that’s what he was trying to prove. But not a single rabbi became his disciple – strange.
All those twelve fools who became his apostles were illiterate, uneducated, poor men: fishermen, woodcutters, carpenters. Not a single rabbi could he manage, the man who was doing such great things. Even in the twentieth century, if anybody walks on water and raises the dead, all the presidents and all the prime ministers and all the queens and kings will be falling at his feet. He would have proved that he belongs directly to God, that he is the only begotten son of God.
But the Jews crucified him because he was just a pretender. And all these stories are invented. What has he said that seems to be so significant? It is all available in the Jewish scriptures. He was simply repeating them, not a single word is his own. And whatever he is saying is against humanity. Perhaps he himself was a homosexual. What was he doing with all those twelve fools hanging around him? Not a single woman! It is strange, really strange.
And it was not that women were not interested in him. In fact, when he was crucified all the disciples had escaped; those great apostles had all escaped fearing that they may be caught. Only one was there, and he also denied Jesus. He said, “I don’t know him, who he is. I am from far away and I have just come to visit the city. I don’t know him.”
When Jesus was brought down from the cross there were only three women there – not a single apostle. His mother was there; a prostitute, Mary Magdalene, was there; and another woman named Mary was there – all these three women whom he condemns badly. In the Christian trinity he could have made a place. What is the need for this Holy Ghost? What function, what purpose does he fulfill? It would have been perfectly right: father, mother, son. It would have looked more natural. But a woman could not be raised so high as to become part of the trinity.
These people – Jerry Falwell, Pope the Polack, Mother Teresa the Terrible – are all against humanity. They want abortion to be illegal; they want birth control methods to be illegal; they want the pill to be illegal, and the pill is the greatest revolution that man has known. The pill is the only thing that can make woman free from man’s slavery. But Falwell is saying that women should follow the Bible, which says the husband is the master, and woman’s only function is to produce children.
In twentieth century America, you tolerate these people! Can’t you make a cross for them? These people go on hanging golden crosses around their necks – why not give them a real cross? I am really surprised, because I had a tremendous respect for the democratic values of America, but I don’t see that they are being practiced.
You have lived in the West now for several years. What does the American west mean to you?
I have not even gone out, my paradise is enough. I don’t bother about anything else – it does not mean anything to me. I have my people. I don’t want to get mixed up with the sad, miserable, suffering. Jesus says, “Blessed are those who mourn, because they shall be comforted.”
I say to my people, “You will never be comforted – remember – because you are not the people who mourn. You are rejoicing. So forget one thing at least: you will never be comforted. But you don’t need it.”
My people are rejoicing, dancing, singing, enjoying every moment to its fullest. And that is my approach: squeeze the juice from every moment, so that you never have to repent that that moment went away unlived. Don’t bother about the past and don’t bother about the future. The present is all there is, so live it totally. And they are living. I do not go out to see those long faces of the Oregonians. I love my people, I love their laughter. This is my world.
How important do you think the use of the land is in terms of the development of human spirituality or society? Is it an important value?
It has tremendous importance. It is our mother, the earth. We may not see it, but we also have roots in the earth. We are walking trees; the earth supplies everything to us. I am against a God who is far away in heaven, but I am not against mother earth. We should enrich it. We should not disturb the balance of nature, which we have been doing for centuries. I am absolutely in favor of nature, its balance. We should not do anything that goes against it, because finally that goes against us. We are part of this earth.
So, land should be used respectfully, lovingly. Hence in my commune work is called “worship.” We have dropped the word work, we use the word worship. Working with the earth – farming, gardening – you are doing really religious work: enriching the earth, helping the earth to regain its lost resources. I am absolutely in favor of environmentalists, those who want to save the environment against the rape that man has done to his own mother. Everywhere the earth has been raped badly.
Something has to be done urgently because the earth is dying, and your religious leaders never talk about the real problems of life. Mahatma Gandhi in India was against any scientific developments that could help the land to regain its youth. No, he was in favor of the traditional methods. I cannot think that an intelligent person will talk such sheer nonsense. But all these people are really not religious, they are political. They are saying what the masses want to hear.
The masses want to hear that their tradition is right, that their past is golden. It is not so. Neither was the past golden nor their traditions are right. None of their ideas about land, manure, production, creativity – nothing is right. This whole humanity is a proof that all your conventions and all your traditions have failed. And man is suffering because of your stupidity, that you go on clinging to those ideas.
You will be surprised to know that Gandhi was against simple things like the telephone, railway trains, motorcars. He was against anything that was invented after the spinning wheel. The spinning wheel must have been invented some two or three thousand years ago. In fact, everything that has any value has happened since. Only one thing can conceivably be put before the spinning wheel, and that is the bullock cart. For Mahatma Gandhi those two things are the greatest inventions.
And it was perfectly okay when the whole population of the world – just twenty-five centuries back, in Buddha’s time – was only two hundred million people, the whole earth. Now just India, without Pakistan, without Bangladesh, is eight hundred thousand million. These people cannot live just on the spinning wheel. You will have to spin for eight hours just to provide enough clothes for yourself. What about your wife, what about your children, what about your old mother, what about your sick father? And can man live by clothes alone?
Jesus says man cannot live by bread alone. Can he live without bread? – the other part is not bothered about at all! I accept the idea that man should have better values, higher values than just eating, drinking. It is good, “Man cannot live by bread alone,” but don’t forget that without bread man cannot live at all.
Man can live without everything, but not without bread. He can live without music, without spirituality, without poetry, without painting, but he cannot live without bread. And if eight hours a day he is just spinning clothes for himself, when is he going to earn bread? When is he going to earn enough money for his old father, his medicine? When is he going to earn money to make a shelter to live in? He cannot live under the spinning wheel.
But Gandhi had a tremendous appeal because he supported – he was against birth control, he was against abortion. Strangely, all the religions which differ in their ideologies, in their philosophies are in a subtle, unconscious conspiracy as far as humanity, its growth, its future, is concerned. Ayatollah Khomeini, Mahatma Gandhi, the pope, Falwell, they may differ in their theology – they do differ – but they don’t differ about fundamental things which can make human life rich, which can make human life comfortable, which can make humanity rich, affluent.
We have the resources now. Science has discovered so much, but we are forcing the scientists into the service of death rather than the service of life. The same energy – and it is not a small part, almost seventy-five percent of the income of all the nations goes into creating more weapons, armies and other things necessary for war. People are living on only twenty-five percent of their productivity.
There is no need for war. There is no need for nuclear weapons. You already have more – seven hundred times more – than are needed to destroy this earth. Now, this is sheer madness. You go on piling them up – for what? These people have to be stopped, and these religious people have to be brought to their senses.
But are you in favor of advanced technology? You seem to be.
I am. I am in favor of technology – but in a technology which does not go against life, does not go against humanity, does not go against the environment. Technology is in our hands: it can destroy, it can create. Technology itself has no value system; we provide the values. I am not against technology. It is like a sword: you can kill a person or you can save a woman from being raped – the same sword. It is neutral, all power is neutral.
So the question is not of technology, the question is of the people who are going to decide the value system. Now, people like Ronald Reagan, who belong to the fundamentalist Christian stupidity, cannot be the right people to decide. Falwell cannot be the right person to decide. To decide exactly what technology should do should be not in the hands of the politicians, who are in turn in the hands of the priests because they have the power of the people, their votes. So it is simply a conspiracy between the politicians and the priests to keep humanity starved, hungry; to keep humanity in such a state that it cannot rebel against the vested interests.
Do you worry about statements that you make about American politicians and about the local controversies regarding land use endangering the ranch here?
We have invited those people who are talking about land use laws to come here: “For 50 years the land was lying dead. You never raised the question that 126 square miles of land is lying dead.” Not a single politician bothered about it. Those “One Thousand Enemies of Oregon” – they did not bother. We have made it productive. We have been inviting the governor, the United States attorney and these people seem such cowards, they won’t come here.
“Just come and see how we have used the land. If it goes against your laws, then change the laws, because man is not made for laws, laws are made for man. Just see if we have misused the land in any way. And if we have, we are ready to correct it, we are willing in every way to change it.” But they don’t come.
Just a few days ago – this incident will help you to understand the situation – we had a festival and we created a new kind of tent, winterized so that people don’t have to suffer in the cold. Immediately the United States attorney imposed a fine of six hundred thousand dollars because we had not taken permission, and, “Your tents are not tents but permanent structures.” We asked them to come and see if they are permanent structures. Nobody ever came to see. They had already decided that we had to pay that much money as punishment. We had to go to the court.
I said to my people, “Take a tent and, there in the court, within ten minutes you can put up the tent. And in ten minutes you can unfold it again and put it back in the truck. And just tell the judge, ‘Is that not enough proof that it is not a permanent structure? We don’t want to argue anything; the tent itself is the argument.’” And the judge was certainly an intelligent man. He immediately dismissed the whole punishment and declared, “These are tents. You cannot create permanent structures in ten minutes!”
And the attorney has no shame even – just a shameless fellow with no dignity. He should have resigned immediately. He cannot even understand what indignity he has suffered. He should just go and jump into the ocean, forget all about it. We were inviting him here, and he would have been saved from this indignity. Now he has put a case against the city, saying that it is illegal because religion and the government – the state – are mixed here. Strange people. They don’t come – they should come and show us where religion is mixing with state.
Your president is trying to mix state and religion. Your courts are mixing state and religion: why are Bibles provided to take the oath on? Why has a Scout been thrown out because he does not believe in God? And now this man, Jerry Falwell, is saying that the Bible should become a national, government-approved scripture, each single word is true. And he has immense power over politicians: he is a friend of Ronald Reagan, he goes to see him. And they both belong to the same company.
And this city is under litigation. This is a unique city in the whole world – an illegal city! Either there is a city or there is no city, but an illegal city is a rare phenomenon. And that, too, when in four years – the time we have been here – not a single crime has happened. No rape has happened, no theft has happened, no murder has happened, no suicide has happened. And we are the illegal city! You should declare New York, San Francisco, illegal cities, because everything illegal is happening there every moment.
Such an innocent city, where nobody is doing any harm to anybody, is illegal. And the people who decide it don’t come here, because they know they cannot encounter and face the reality. But we are going to prove that the whole of America may be illegal, but this city is not.
What would you eventually like to create here?
We would like to create as big an oasis as possible – a model for the whole world. We would like people to know that crimes are not needed, rapes are not needed, prostitution is not needed, politicians are not needed. We are living with such psychological health. If somebody commits a mistake – which is human – it is not a sin, he should be encouraged to learn from his mistake. If he goes on committing the same mistake, then we have all kinds of therapies in the university. We send the person to the university; that now it is for the world of the psychologists, psychoanalysts, psychiatrists, to change this man’s conditioning.
No, we don’t have any jail here – our police we call “the Peace Force,” and they have no work. They must be getting bored holding their guns the whole day for four years. Nothing happens. Their guns are not needed, and I don’t think they will ever be needed. We would like to create a model. I don’t believe in arguments, I believe in existential proofs. Rather than convincing by arguing, I would like…
And this is not the only commune, we have hundreds of communes around the world on the same pattern. We are trying in every way to prove that people can live so happily, so blissfully, so lovingly, that there is no need for anybody to murder, to commit suicide, to become homosexual, to suffer from this ugly disease AIDS.
All my sannyasins around the world have gone through the test for AIDS. I said, “All immediately go for the test.” In this commune we have found two persons with AIDS. That does not mean they have lost our respect. They have gained more respect and more love, because they are victims of the whole past of the religions. We have made the best houses available to them, the most scenic place. And because they are not going to live more than two years at the most, we are providing them with everything we can: all our love, all our respect. They are not reduced the way they would be in the outside world.
In the outside world a person does not want to go through the test, because if it is found that he has AIDS, even his family – his wife who was ready to die for him, his father, his mother, even his children – will close the door and tell him, “Get lost. You don’t belong to us.” His friends will become enemies. He will lose his job. He cannot live. If it is known that he has AIDS, the only way out for him will be suicide.
But in my commune they are living more beautifully than any other sannyasin. And we have given them meditations. They can meditate, they can study, they can paint – whatever they want to do. Whatever they always wanted to do but could never get time. Now they have two years, two whole years.
This is too much: do everything that you wanted to do. And meditate as deeply as possible, because if your death comes and you are able to meditate while death is coming, that is the greatest experience in the world. Death comes to the body, to the brain, but not to you. You can go on watching death, step by step. It has taken your body, it has taken your brain, it has taken your heart, but you are still the same. At the very center of your being is something which is eternal.
And these two years – they are fortunate: good fortune has come disguised as AIDS. Otherwise, how to get two years time just to meditate and do nothing? I have every certainty they will die a beautiful death. The other religions have given them the disease, we are going to give them rejoicing, even in death. And nobody can spread it here because nobody can be part of the commune unless he goes through the test.
The disease is really such that very drastic steps have to be taken. For example, kissing can give it to you, tears can give it to you. So I have told my people, “Stop kissing.” Anyway it is a very unhygienic procedure. I don’t see that it has anything to do with love. Just mixing your saliva, tongues playing in each other’s mouths – it is simply insane. And we can find better, more scientific, more hygienic methods.
Eskimos have never kissed, so it is not anything unnatural. I know in India there are aboriginal tribes who have never kissed. In fact, when they first found Christian missionaries kissing, they could not believe it: “These idiots, what are they doing?” Even aboriginals who are five thousand years behind could not believe: “These idiots have come to teach us, and they don’t know what they are doing.” Rather than kissing, Eskimos rub their noses, which is far more hygienic. In India the most ancient book on sexology prescribes playing with each other’s earlobes; they are very erotic. So we can find ways, there is no problem. Just a little intelligence is needed.
Never wipe anybody’s tears. In fact in my commune it doesn’t happen: nobody is crying and weeping and screaming – the whole scene that is happening in every family. It is not a family. But even if somebody is crying – perhaps tears may come out of joy – don’t allow those tears to be touched by anybody.
Sex is also unhygienic.
It is. But it can be made hygienic, and we have made it. I don’t believe in theories: if I see something is right, I tell my people to do it. While making love they should use condoms, while making love they should use gloves. And they are freely available to everybody.
This is simple intelligence. Why do unnecessary harm to the person you love?
You're a sensual man…
Rubber gloves and condoms detract from sensuality.
No, they do not. If you are really sensuous, they also become sensuous. Otherwise your skin would destroy your sensuality. What is your skin? It is just a rubber glove! Do you want the woman to be really naked, all skin taken away? Then you will make love? If you can make love through the skin, what is wrong with plastic or rubber over your hand? It is just new, and in fact everything new is an adventure.
I am a sensuous man and I appreciate sensuality. But my understanding is that a sensuous man can touch anything and make it sensuous. A non-sensuous man or anti-sensuous man…
And you may have observed, sometimes you shake hands with a man and you feel as if you are shaking hands with a dead branch of a tree. That man is not there. He is simply fulfilling a mannerism. There is no warmth coming from him, in fact you will feel sucked. By being with this man you will feel tired. You will feel as if that man was somehow a parasite on your energy.
So it is not a question, you can make anything sensuous. And when life is in danger you have to find a way – because what will you do if life disappears? Then where will your sensuality be? And where will your sexuality be? It is a simple matter of intelligence.
What is going to happen to this community when you are gone?
I never think about the future – because my idea is that anybody who tries to make arrangements for when he is gone is a criminal, because he wants to rule even when he is dead.
Jesus says, “I am the only begotten son of God, so don’t listen to anybody else. Only I am the savior, nobody else can save you.” So even when he is dead he is dominating half of humanity. Dead people controlling, dominating living beings, intelligent beings!
Manu wrote the moral code for the Hindus five thousand years ago. They are still following it. In five thousand years everything has changed. That code is absolutely rotten; it should be burned, but it is being followed. The older a scripture, the more valuable it becomes. So every religion tries to prove that their scripture is the oldest. The ancient-ness of the scripture should really be against the scripture; the more ancient it is, the more worthless it is. Is man evolving or falling down? We have evolved in every way and we should use every method.
Of course, Manu cannot be aware of it, neither can Jesus be aware of it, nor can Buddha be aware of it. Still they have tried to dominate the future. I find it disgusting. I don’t want to dominate even now when I am alive. I simply express myself and leave it to my people to decide on their own. I never go to the commune’s office, I never go to the commune’s meetings; I am not even a member. It is up to them. I share heart-to-heart what I feel in a certain situation, then they are free. Then I never even ask whether they have done anything about it or not. That is not my business. Who am I? Why should I dominate anybody? That is degrading the other person, reducing his humanity.
And you are asking me: “…after your death”? I am not going to have any successor, because popes have done so much harm in two thousand years. I am not going to create another line of popes, no. I am sharing my awareness with my people. That awareness will take care.
My whole effort is to make them more alert, more intelligent, so that they live through their intelligence. They are functioning right now without me, so in the future they will be able. I don’t even know the roads of the commune, I have only my own road where I go for driving. Twenty-three hours it remains in meditation – only for one hour I disturb it, otherwise there is no traffic.
My people are already living on their own. And my idea is that before I leave them I should become almost absent. So there will be no problem at all – my death will not create a problem for them. I was already absent for many years before death, and they were managing perfectly well. They will manage perfectly well after.
For three and a half years I was silent, I was not speaking. They managed perfectly well, everything went absolutely right. It was tremendously joyful for me to see that while I was silent and they could not get any instruction from me, they had the whole responsibility. They could not dump responsibility on me, and they did so beautifully.
It was just because they did beautifully during my silence that I started speaking again. Now there is no problem: they are not dependent on my speaking or not speaking, so they will not be dependent even on my presence. My absence or presence will not make any difference.
The people who appoint their successors, who give instructions, who make Ten Commandments, are really not the right kind of people. They are trying to dominate humanity through their graves. I am not interested in dominating a single individual. My whole effort is to make every individual totally responsible for himself.
Let me ask you a question about the present: why do you like Rolls Royces so much?
I have tried all kinds of cars; and even Rolls Royce has many types and I have tried them too. Their best is the Corniche, but it doesn’t suit me. It is a question of my back. I need a certain kind of chair – I use only this chair. It has been made by my sannyasins exactly to give support to my back, because doctors have said that they cannot do anything more.
Experts from England were called to India. They tried hard, but they said, “It is impossible. You will have to live with it.” It was just a coincidence that one of the models of Rolls Royce, Silver Spur, suited me. The driver’s seat in that car fits perfectly, gives me no trouble. Naturally, my people love…
They don’t belong to me, those cars – nothing belongs to me. I am the poorest man in the whole world, living the richest life possible. My people love me, they want to do something for me. All those cars belong to the commune; they have made them available to me for one hour each day. I don’t know which car they are bringing, but one thing is certain, that I can be comfortable only in a Silver Spur. And they love me so much that they are trying to have 365 Rolls Royces, one for every day. And I say, why not, a great idea!
They make everything for me: this chair, my shoes, my robes, my hats, even my watch – they make everything for me. And because they make everything with so much love, so much feeling, I can feel the robe is not just the cloth. That’s why I said I am certainly a sensuous man. Wearing this robe I can feel my sannyasins, their love for me. Wearing this watch I can feel the person who worked hard on it. He did not know how to make watches. He went to Switzerland to learn, and now two of my sannyasins can defeat any watchmaker in the world.
The same watch from Piaget – exactly the same watch – is a quarter of a million dollars. My sannyasins have made it, not with diamonds but with real authentic stones. In that way it has no price, it is just the cheapest watch possible. In another way it is priceless. If somebody offers me one billion dollars for it, I am not going to give it to them. Love is never for sale.
They have arranged 90 Rolls Royces, and I know they will be able to manage 365.
If you sold two or three Rolls Royces, you could build another lake with the money.
They will make the lake too – there is no need to sell the Rolls Royces. They will never sell them. Even when I am gone, those Rolls Royces are not going to be sold. I have used them; they will feel my presence in them. They will not want anybody else to sit in those cars. Those cars are not saleable. And as far as lakes are concerned, they are doing whatever is needed.
We have made a great lake, and now we are thinking to double it. Two and a half million dollars worth of lake, and we are now planning to double it. Already it is great, but when it enters deeper into the mountains it will be more scenic for boats, for people to go deep into the mountains. We are making everything.
As far as money is concerned, it is not a problem. We can create it. All my communes around the world are living richly. You can see it here: not only that I have ninety Rolls Royces, my other sannyasins have Rolls Royces, they have Mercedes Benzes. There are hundreds of cars. There are only fifteen hundred permanent residents here, and I don’t think any city in the whole world can compete as far as cars are concerned. Fifteen hundred people have one hundred busses. Fifteen hundred people have five airplanes and their own airport. And everybody can have any kind of vehicle he wants anytime, because we have made a pool of the vehicles.
For example, in Jesus Grove where we are sitting, they have a pool of hundreds of cars. Anybody can take any car, everything belongs to all; just out of their love, they will not take my cars. Nobody has prohibited them – I have not prohibited them. Just out of love, out of gratitude, they will not take them. Otherwise, those ninety cars are always available, they can take them. What can I do with ninety Rolls Royces? I drive only for one hour; I cannot drive ninety cars in one hour. They also know it, but they feel how much love I have given to them.
I have given my whole heart to them, so they want to do something. They try to do anything they can. And it is not a duty on them – nobody has asked them, nobody is forcing them. It is out of sheer joy that they go on doing things. And that’s the way it should be.
I don’t even say that I am your leader or your master. I simply say I am just a friend. If my experience can be of any help to you, I am ready to share.

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