The Last Testament Vol 1 05

Fifth Discourse from the series of 30 discourses - The Last Testament Vol 1 by Osho.
You can listen, download or read all of these discourses on

Sheela: I have some champagne, some cigars.

That’s good.

Sheela: What would you care for?

Good. Keep them by my side.

Sheela: The silver ones are Brazilian and the others Romeo and Juliet Havanas.

Good. Yes…

Howard Sattler
6PR Radio, Australia
You have the champagne, I have the water. You say you're an ordinary man. Where does that place the rest of us?
You will be drinking water and I will not be touching the champagne. There is the difference.
You and particularly your Rajneeshees have created quite an impact on Western Australia – where I come from – through a lot of things: their commercial endeavors and their efforts to start a community school in our southwest. The people of Western Australia want to know about you, about your people. Could you tell them what sort of person you are?
I don’t know at all. I just live moment to moment, so you cannot confine me into a personality You cannot define me, you cannot predict me. I don’t even know myself what I am going to do tomorrow morning. I am simply as open as existence and as indefinable as existence itself. So people have to figure out whatsoever they want – I am available. There are people who love me, there are people who would like to kill me. They have chosen different parts of me, they have focused their eyes according to their prejudices. But I am not in any way concerned about the opinion of others. I don’t have any opinion about other people, any judgment about other people.
Are you a threat to their existence and their futures? Many people have been told you are.
Perhaps. If you don’t understand what I am saying, I am certainly a threat. But if they understand what I am saying they will rejoice, there is no threat. In fact, I want to make these people contemporaries. They are not: somebody is hanging two thousand years back with Jesus Christ, somebody is hanging even farther back with Moses or Buddha. These people certainly will feel me a threat because I belong to the present.
I want them to come to the present, otherwise there is no hope for humanity. These people are simply walking corpses, burdened with the whole load of the past – ugly, superstitious. Certainly I am a threat to their superstitions, I am a threat to their rotten theologies. I am a threat to their concepts about morality, God, religion, about everything they have that is out of date. Certainly they will feel threatened because that’s how they have become identified in their own eyes, and it is always difficult to change.
Whenever a man like me is there, there are not two ways: either you have to be with me or you have to be against me.
Does that mean that they have to become Rajneeshees?
No, there is no need: they have to become contemporaries, that’s enough. Rajneeshees are not an alternative, they are simply the groundwork for the contemporary man to begin with. Once the world has understood that we have to live in the present, not in the past, Rajneeshees will simply dissolve. It is not something that I would like to remain forever and forever, it is a simple device to challenge people, to bring them to their senses. And once our work is done… They don’t need to become Rajneeshees, they need to become contemporaries, and the moment they are contemporaries, our work is done. Rajneeshees will simply melt and dissolve into the whole world.
You certainly challenge people's traditional values, and that's one of the things I believe makes your job more difficult. Do you think that you could be a little bit more moderate and look for the end result rather than the immediate reaction?
I don’t care about the end result. My whole concern is not diplomatic, nor political. I am simply responding with my totality to anything that comes in front of me. I cannot be cunning. What you are saying to me – be a little more cunning – I cannot be.
You're not a politician, are you?
I am not a politician, that is the ugliest thing that can happen to a man. I am not diplomatic: I do not want people to be manipulated politely. I am not a hypocrite: I simply say the truth as it is. If it hurts, it is your problem. If it creates enemies I am not worried, because the enemies are on the first step to becoming my friends. They have already recognized me in their hate. They have already recognized their defeat and death, now nobody can save them. They cannot ignore me – if they can ignore me, then there is no threat for them. That’s why I have to be intense, fiery, and I have to hammer hard on each traditional value, because the only thing that I would not like is to be ignored.
You certainly won't be ignored, I can assure you of that.
Thank you for the compliment.
You have a situation where I come from in Western Australia where your Rajneeshees have got to get approval from governments, from politicians, to go ahead with their projects. What's your advice to them if the politicians are against you?
With guns?
No, legal methods are available. Those politicians themselves are claiming that they are democratic, use their own democracy and fight with them. They are saying that their judicial system is fair? Use it and fight them. Guns are just barbarous.
You would never use guns or condone that sort of…?
I myself will never even touch a gun. My advice to the people who belong to me is, “Be intelligent, use your intelligence.” And against those idiotic politicians it is a simple matter: we are going to use their own devices for their own destruction. We need not use any guns.
Your personal secretary created an incredible impact in Western Australia. Certainly she was probably number one entertainment for around about a month on radio and television. But I understand that you are a little bit unhappy with the way she handled things – you thought she could have been a bit tougher.
She could have been.
I don't believe it.
And I have been very tough with her because I don’t see any limit anywhere, you can go on in any direction infinitely. Sheela is never going to satisfy me. She is doing her best, but I would like her to do a little more, more…
Well, perhaps you should come next time.
First she has to go on preparing the ground for me. One day I am going to come.
To Australia, to Western Australia?
Certainly. When Sheela comes, that means I am coming.
She's getting us ready, is she?
Yes, she is coming again. She will go again and again, and prepare the ground. She will hit people more and more, and their values more and more, so they become ready. Because when I come, then comes the final hit.
All your opponents will be almost knocked out by then.
Just tell your people, “Be ready.”
What will you do when you get there?
I cannot say that now because I don’t know myself. When I go there and I see the situation and I feel the atmosphere, then whatsoever happens in me as a response… I never prepare myself for anything. I am not an actor – no rehearsal, I simply start the drama without knowing what is going to happen. We will see it. And up to now everything has gone well.
I have been told that one of the reasons you live in Oregon is because the weather suits you, because of your medical condition.
The weather in Western Australia is almost the same as Oregon.
That’s great! It may become my permanent residence.
That's not going to be good news for your opponents.
Certainly not, but wherever I am the situation is the same. I will find my friends, I will find my enemies. Both belong to me; in fact they are two polarities, complementaries. There is nothing wrong in it.
You said just a little while ago that you are not an actor. But a lot of people might class you as one of the great comedians of this world.
I am.
Where does the talent come from?
Just because I don’t expect any respectability from anybody, so I can act the way I want. I can be funny without any trouble. I have nothing to lose, because in the first place, I have never expected the world to praise me and give me Nobel Prizes, and this and that. I have everything that I need – it is within me, and I am completely fulfilled. Now I can be crazy, mad, a comedian. I am absolutely free to be anything, I can afford anything, even to be a madman. But it is within my control, and I enjoy the whole show so much.
You enjoy the laughs?
More than anything else?
You've suggested that perhaps you are a madman. I don't think you are a madman at all. But there are madmen around the world who are religious leaders and I'd ask you, if I could, to comment on some of them: the Ayatollah Khomeini?
I said to you that I can be a madman, and that is possible only if I am not mad. I can enjoy being mad, but I am not mad – that’s why I can enjoy it. The madman has become identified with his madness. One thing is absolutely certain about every madman: he will never accept that he is mad. The religious leaders are mostly mad people, fanatics, and just because they are mad, fanatic, they gather all kinds of idiots around them.
Whole nations sometimes, like Iran: a whole country.
Yes, because most human beings are retarded. Scientifically, the average mental age of a human being is below thirteen. Now if thirteen is your mental age, you may be seventy years old but you can be exploited, you can be conditioned for any nonsense. You can be made afraid of hell, for which no evidence exists. You can be motivated: your greed can be aroused for heaven, for which no evidence exists. You can be conditioned to pray to a God who is the greatest lie in the world.
The wonder of wonders is that even in your supreme courts – where you have your best judges, the cream – the oath has to be taken in the name of God. The oath to be truthful, in the name of the greatest lie! None of those judges have seen God, none of those judges have any idea what God is, but it is being used. Most of humanity is so mediocre that it can follow any madman. The madman just has to be a little methodological, and the religious madmen are very methodological.
There is no contradiction in being methodological. Methodology does not need intelligence. Now, what is the methodology of Jesus? – “I am the only begotten son of God.” And the mediocre people are going to believe it, because to not believe in it is to go to hell and suffer for eternity. Nobody wants to suffer for eternity – as it is, one is suffering enough already. One wants some relief. Even if the relief comes after death, one wants to live peacefully and joyously, not starving, not sick, not old, not ugly.
Naturally a simple methodology: “I am the only begotten son of God, I can save you, I have come to save the whole world, those who believe in me I will choose for paradise, and those who don’t believe in me will fall into an abysmal darkness of hell.” A very simple methodology – and the suffering, the poor, the starving, the uneducated, the downtrodden, the oppressed, exploited are ready to cling to any hope.
Because there is nothing in their life. It is so empty that if there is no hope for them, they will commit suicide. Then there is no other way – for what should they go on, continue dragging their empty lives? Just to suffer? Just to get hit, just to be crushed under the boots of people who are in power? The hope helps.
And that is the methodology of all the religions: Give people hope. But the strategy is very cunning: keep the hope beyond death – because they know perfectly well that hope in this life cannot be fulfilled, and then these same people who are their followers will kill them. So keep the hope beyond death – you can never be caught, nobody comes back from death to say that these people are lying. So they go on lying, and the more a lie is repeated, day by day, year by year, century by century, for thousands of years, it almost starts sounding as if it is true.
So the pope is a fraud?
Certainly, absolutely. All religions up to now have been a fraud; they have deceived people and because of their deception humanity has continued to suffer. Otherwise, we have enough intelligence. If we can reach to the moon, do you think we cannot manage enough food for humanity?
Perhaps we are spending too much money reaching the moon.
That, too, is foolish: if you cannot feed people here, what are you going to do on the moon? Seventy-five percent of every nation’s income – even poor nations – is going into construction for the coming war. Everybody is getting ready.
Is it going to happen?
If all these people are getting ready and are getting excited about it, any fool can start it. My effort is that it should not happen, but the only way to prevent it is to make human beings more alert so that they cannot be exploited by priests and politicians. And that’s what I am doing. Naturally politicians are against me – all kinds of politicians. It is a miracle: the capitalist is against me, the socialist is against me, the communist is against me, the fascist is against me. It is simply a miracle.
But you're a capitalist here, running a commune.
I am not a capitalist. I use capital as a servant, it is not my political ideology. I want people to live richly in every possible way: luxury should be available to everybody. I don’t want people to become equally poor and call it communism. I want people to become equally rich, and then whatever name you want to call it, you can call it. Names don’t matter.
Is that sort of wealth available to the people of India, the sort of people that Mother Teresa tries to help?
These people like Mother Teresa, who have been helping the poor for centuries, are really the causes for poverty continuing. The poor cannot be helped the way Mother Teresa is helping. This is not help, this is politics, because all those orphans she helps are transformed, converted into Catholic Christianity.
In fact, Mother Teresa would be out of a job if there were no orphans in India. She needs more orphans. That’s why they are all against birth control methods, against abortion. Otherwise, from where are you going to get orphans? They need the poor, because without the poor whom are you going to serve? And without service you cannot reach heaven. This is a simple strategy to reach heaven.

I love one story:
It happened in China that a man fell into a well. It was the annual fair so there was so much noise that nobody took any note that he was shouting, “Save me!” A Buddhist monk passed by, he looked into the well and told the man that there was no need to cry and scream.
“Accept whatsoever is the case, be contented. In the next life you will be fulfilled a thousandfold.”
The man said, “I am not here to listen to philosophy. I am dying and you are talking philosophy. First, please help me get out.”
The Buddhist said, “It is against my religion to interfere into the actions and the consequences of somebody else. You must have committed some sin in your past life. You have fallen into the well, be happy that your sin is finished, your punishment is over. But I am not going to take you out, because tomorrow if you murder somebody then I will also be responsible for it. I am not going to be responsible for any murder.”
And he went away.
The man could not believe it, “These Buddhists talk about compassion. I am dying and he talks philosophy. I am not in a state even to understand what he is saying.”
And after him came a Confucian monk. In the old days in China the wells had no walls surrounding them, so it was very easy to fall into them in the darkness, there was no preventive measure.
The Confucian monk said, “Listen, you are the proof of what my master has said. My master has said that every well should have walls around it. Don’t be worried, I am going to create a great revolution in the whole country, so that every well is well protected.”
The man said, “But when will the revolution happen? And when will all the wells have walls? By that time I will be gone.”
The Confucian said, “You are not the question – individuals come and go. It is a question for the whole society. We cannot bother about a single individual, we think in terms of the whole civilization.”
And he went away to create a revolution.
And then came a Christian monk with a bag hanging on his shoulder. He took a rope from the bag, threw it in, took the man out. The man was immensely grateful, fell at his feet and said, “You are the only religious man. But tell me how you guessed that somebody has fallen into the well. And you came with a rope – why are you carrying a rope?”
He said, “We carry everything in this bag for emergency purposes, anywhere. Somebody will need to be served, and our lord Jesus Christ has said that those who serve will receive immense rewards in heaven.”

Now, think of a world where nobody is in need of anybody’s service: everybody is happy, healthy, comfortable, luxurious. What will happen to the great Christian servants and saints? They will simply be out of a job. They need poverty to remain, it is their very source of becoming saints, holier than thou.
I don’t say to my people, “Go and serve the poor.” Service, to me, is not a beautiful word. I say to my people, “If you have something, share it. But remember one thing: there is no reward beyond it.” Enjoy sharing – that is the reward. If you pull somebody out who is drowning in a well, that’s a great joy. What more reward do you want? You saved a life; you should be immensely happy. The reward is in the act itself and the punishment also is in the act itself. They are not extrinsic, they are intrinsic.
But all these religions have been telling people that the reward is somewhere far away – beyond death – and punishment, too. Neither can it be proved, nor can it be disproved; hence their business goes on and on, and mediocre people go on following it.
If all these religions disappear two things are possible: either the poor will die out of poverty… Ethiopia will disappear, so what? – it is better that Ethiopia disappears from the earth, rather than thousands of people dying in hunger. With hunger you don’t die in a day: a man can live hungry for three months, he will become just a skeleton – and what is the point of these three months of torture?
So, there are two alternatives if all these great servants of people don’t interfere: either countries like Ethiopia, India, other poor countries will disappear… Let them disappear, this earth cannot manage so many people.
What would you say to the millions of Australians who have donated to buy food for Ethiopians who are dying of hunger, dying of war?
It does not help: it simply will save a few Ethiopians, who will produce more Ethiopians.
We should stop aid to Ethiopia?
You should stop completely, because the world needs only one fourth of the population that it has right now. Only then can people be peaceful, living comfortably, joyously. There is no need – what is the point? I have been in India for fifty years, and for thirty years I have been teaching people that birth control is absolutely essential, that abortion is absolutely essential. And they were throwing stones at me, knives at me, shoes at me; that was my reward.
In places like India and perhaps South America, oppressed countries, should there be a moratorium on all births for, say, twenty years?
That’s what I said, that there should be total birth control for twenty or thirty years.
That’s what I was saying, that there are two possibilities: one, the poor will disappear. Please don’t serve them, be compassionate. Your service is not compassion, your service is your greed for heaven. You are using people and their poverty for your own joys in heaven – beautiful women who are always young, who don’t even perspire and don’t need any deodorant.
In the Mohammedan heaven there are rivers of wine. You cannot get water in the Mohammedan heaven, only wine. Here it is a crime, here it is a sin and the same thing that is sin here – Mohammedans are against alcohol – by a miracle, the same wine becomes virtue, saints are enjoying it. To look at somebody else’s wife with lustful eyes is sin, and your saints, what are they doing in heaven? They are not married, there is no marriage in heaven. They are enjoying all kinds of women.
Either let the poor die – be compassionate – or if you are really compassionate, then stop this wastage of your energy and money for war effort, drop these boundaries between nations. Let there be only one government – which is enough. There is no need for America and Soviet Union and India and Ethiopia, just let there be one global government.
Who would be its president, Ronald Reagan?
Certainly not!
No! Not I, because I don’t want to get into any stupid mess. Not Reagan, because if the world is one, people will find a better man, a wiser man. Because the world will be available to choose, they will not choose Reagan, with a chimpanzee as his friend. There are wiser people in the world.
The moment nations are not there, war is impossible. So seventy-five percent of the income of the whole world can change the whole scene – there will be nobody who is poor. There is no need for anybody to be poor. And if there is one world, all scientific effort will become creative. Right now it is destructive, right now it prepares only for war; but when there is no need for any war, all scientific minds will take a 180-degree turn. It will be creative; we can create so much that nobody will bother about paradise.
What's it going to take for this to happen? You're enough of a realist to know that it won't happen tomorrow.
I don’t know, I am simply saying that these are the two alternatives. Either let the poor die and don’t make a fuss about it, or, if you are really concerned, then let the nations disappear so there is no need for war. Scientific efforts will automatically go for making more comfort, more luxury, more health, longer life.
I am not concerned what happens, I am simply saying these are the only two alternatives; there is no third alternative. And I am telling my people to spread the word all over the world. We have been here four years and a not a single baby has been born – just simple intelligence is needed.
But why no babies here? People here could afford to procreate.
No, if they want to live really joyously and luxuriously, there is no need. If they want freedom and equality between man and woman, then it is better to avoid babies.
But surely the human race will die out of existence if everybody does that?
No, no, I am not saying that. My proposal is that people stop this accidental creation of babies and start looking for a more scientific way. Any man, any woman who wants a baby, should be given permission by the medical board. It does not matter if the medical board says to the husband, “You are not the right person for this woman. You will have to take some semen, either from the hospital bank or from somebody we propose, to make this woman pregnant. Then your child will be a genius.”
So you're attracted to the test-tube baby program?
I am absolutely in favor of the scientific production of children.
A master race.
Right now it is mass production – and accidental. That will not be mass production and it will not be accidental; it will be intelligent, and we will not be producing in a factory. There is no need for so many people to be produced, we need only a few people. And as science goes on serving humanity and human needs, on the other hand people will be living longer and longer, and we will need fewer and fewer new people to come. It is an absolute certainty that we have the capacity to live at least three hundred years.
There is no question of mass production. And even if you want to call this mass production, so what? If it is better than your individual, haphazard way of production, not knowing what you are doing, not knowing what is happening.
You are making love to a woman, absolutely unconscious of what is going on in the biology, of what kind of child is going to be born: blind, deaf, retarded, mad, sick from the very birth, crippled… You call it an intelligent way? The intelligent way will be that we can manage that the best human seeds meet together from the very beginning. And we can program – now it has become possible. We can program the egg and the semen cell for anything. It is a question of giving a certain program.
I am fifteen thousand miles away from home, and even now I think I can hear people screaming that you're trying to destroy their freedom of choice.
Let them scream, it will give them good exercise. I call it Dynamic Meditation. I am always for scientific, intelligent efforts because all religious and political efforts have failed. Now there is only one thing left, and that is science – let us try it once. If that too fails, it means life is impossible on this earth, perhaps it has come to its point of death.
If your predictions are correct it will be AIDS that will reduce and contain the world's population, because you have said that it will kill two-thirds of the people. People here have gone to extreme lengths to stop it infiltrating your community: there are condoms and rubber gloves supplied to all. Medical scientists, however, are closely monitoring AIDS, and they say that only a few thousand people will be affected. How do you know it is going to kill so many people?
It is absolutely clear, simple arithmetic. It is scientifically certain now that there is no remedy for AIDS. The man who has it is going to die within two years’ time. Two years is the maximum limit – he may die within six months or two months or six weeks or today, but he cannot live more than two years. And medicine has nothing to help him – there is no way, because AIDS is not an ordinary disease. It is a very strange disease, it simply destroys your resistance against diseases. You become vulnerable to all infections, all contagions. There is nothing inside you to fight against it, it is as if the very life force has disappeared.
And the man who has AIDS can have many contacts. Before he became aware, he may have had many contacts, sexual relationships. He must have given AIDS to those people, and they will be spreading it. And now it is known that it can be given to a person even by kissing – not even sexual intercourse is needed – because saliva carries the disease. Kissing should be absolutely illegal.
What's the alternative?
Rub noses – there are tribes who don’t kiss, they just rub noses and enjoy. I don’t see that there is any problem, and noses are more hygienic. Find some other alternative. But kissing cannot be in favor of human life anymore. It can pass – they suspect – even through breathing. That’s why I say it can spread like wildfire.
I would not like my people to die from AIDS. Dying is not a problem: I am not afraid of death, but death should be a celebration, it should come out in a joyful, blissful mood. We celebrate death here, we dance, we sing. This is the final goodbye to the person whom we have loved and with whom we have known many beautiful moments. What more can we do? But dying from AIDS will not be a celebration.
What do you think of homosexuals? – because they have been blamed for spreading most of the AIDS.
They are all perverts. But the religions are responsible for homosexuality, it is a religious perversion. The first homosexuals happened in monasteries where men were not allowed to see women, in nunneries where women were not allowed to see men. There are monasteries where for one thousand years not even a six-month-old female baby has entered – it is not allowed. Sometimes I wonder! A six-month-old female baby is not allowed to go inside – are there monks living there, or monsters? But they have become monsters. They are not meditating, they are masturbating.
They tell us they're celibate.
They go on telling that to the world, but they should come to a scientific lab and prove it. How can they be celibate? Nobody can be celibate. It is just as if somebody says, “I do not urinate,” you will not believe him. He will say, “It is my religion not to urinate.” Nobody will believe him, but everybody believes in celibacy.
There is no celibacy: it has never existed, and all those who have pretended either became homosexuals or became masturbators. Or, if they were not courageous enough even to be homosexuals or to masturbate, then nature has its own way: in their sleep their semen will be released. They will be having beautiful women in their dreams. Mahatma Gandhi tried for thirty years to be celibate after he had given birth to five sons. He must have been forty at that time. Impossible! He was having wet dreams even at the age of seventy.
He might have been lucky! Not many seventy-year-olds have that sort of dreams, do they?
No, if you are repressed, only then can you have them. If you are enjoying love, you will be spent.
Have you ever been celibate?
Right now I am celibate, but if my health gets better I am not going to be celibate. I have never been celibate, I do not do anything against nature. Right now I am celibate, not because celibacy has any value, but just because I am sick. I don’t have any energy to make love to a woman and do all the gymnastics, no. I have enough energy to talk to my people, to talk to you. If I get healthy again, I promise you, I will not be celibate.
Don't promise me, promise them. All the ladies about the place tell me that you're a great lover.
I am!
How do they know that?
Many of them must have loved me, I must have loved them.
Does that mean you've had sex with them?
Certainly. How do you love if you don’t have sex with them?
How do you choose your sexual partners?
There is no question, because I don’t have any contract, any relationship, anything similar to marriage. No, just for the moment, in the moment.
Traveling in a train I meet a stranger… I don’t ask even the name of the woman, because we may never meet again. What is the point? But if she is willing… And I am really “the blessed one”: I don’t know why, but women are always willing. I have never come across a woman who was not willing. If I was not willing, that is another matter, but if I was willing, then I have never come across a woman in my life who was not willing.
And there was no question of any promise of, “I will love you forever, forever.” There is no problem – it is just a momentous, momentary affair. We share this moment, we enjoy this moment. And perhaps at the next station I will be gone, or she will be gone and we may never see each other again. I have never seen again many women with whom I had a beautiful moment of love.
But there are many women here in my commune, and that proves a very fundamental thing: that although I have loved so many women they are not jealous of each other.
Have you ever come close to getting married?
No, never. I have been against marriage from the very beginning, because it means cutting down your freedom. Getting attached legally to a woman or to a man, no. Freedom to me is the ultimate value, there is nothing higher than freedom.
It was difficult, because I was fighting from the very beginning. My parents were in difficulty, my family was in difficulty, but I told them absolutely clearly that I was not going to be married. They would have been perfectly happy if I had been going to be a celibate monk. I said, “No, I am not going to be a celibate monk either.”
That was their trouble: if I was going to be a celibate monk they would be happy. In fact, they would have felt proud that their son had become a great monk. I said, “No, both are ditches. I am going to walk just in the middle, on the razor’s edge.” And I have enjoyed the walk tremendously.
What about the pressures from the society in which you lived – not just your parents – because particularly in those days Indian society would have been very, very close and would have demanded that you did one of two things?
I am intelligent enough for that society.
So, what would you say now to all the people in the world who are married? Should they all get divorced?
Everybody should get divorced, without exception. People should meet and love each other occasionally, as opportunity comes. There should be no ugly state when a wife has to make love to a man whom she does not love anymore, but she has to fulfill her duty. The husband is fulfilling his duty: while he is making love to the woman he may be thinking of some other woman, she may be thinking of some other man. What kind of neurotic society have you created? If you don’t love each other, at least be human and say frankly that it was beautiful to be together, but now it is finished. Say goodbye.
I would like marriage to disappear completely from the world, and with marriage, divorce will disappear. With marriage, prostitution will disappear. With marriage, most of the work of the priest will disappear. With marriage, almost ninety-nine percent of the work of psychoanalysts, therapists, psychiatrists will disappear. It is marriage that is creating all kinds of psychological perversions, repressions, guilt.
It is simply human: you see a beautiful woman and you would like to have some time with her. It does not need any God’s permission – even your God committed rape with the Virgin Mary, without her consent.
Do you believe that story?
I just believe that story because it proves that your God is a rapist; otherwise, I don’t believe in the story. Jesus must be a bastard – it is certain he was not the son of Joseph, and just to cover up the whole thing, that great story has been invented.
He got God to do the job!
They say God is a trinity: God, the Holy Ghost and the Son. The Holy Ghost did it, but he is part of God. It is just like my hand is part of me and your genitals are part of you – the Holy Ghost is part of God, perhaps he is his genitals. Otherwise, how could he manage to make a virgin girl pregnant?
What about family responsibilities, the married partners' responsibility to their children?
Children should be the responsibility of the commune, not of the family. It is the family which creates tremendous problems in the children’s minds. It gives them all their sickness, all their superstitions, all their stupid ideas, theologies, religion, political parties. It enforces on the child. The child has to be freed from the family. If you want a new man, then the family is an ugly institution, its time is over. It should be replaced by the commune, and then it is very easy – the commune takes care of all the children.
There will be the father, the mother; they can meet the child, the child can come to them. But basically it is the responsibility of the commune to take care of the children. The children will have many uncles and many aunts, and they will have more opportunity for human contact with different types of people. They will be immensely enriched.
Our children are very impoverished; they know only one man, one woman, and they know the constant quarrel between the two. The woman is nagging the husband, the husband is beating the woman. And this is what you are training them for: your boy will repeat you, he will knowingly or unknowingly be your carbon copy. Your daughter will repeat your wife, knowingly or unknowingly. That’s why no son can ever forgive his father, and no daughter can ever forgive her mother. They destroyed their lives. It is absolutely a psychologically proved phenomenon.
But if the commune takes care, then they will have experience of so many different kinds of people. It is my experience that every person is so unique that the more contacts, intimacies, love affairs you have, the richer you will be. I have not seen two women who are similar. Making love to many women, I have seen that every woman is a unique personality in herself, her way of making love is totally different. The people who have never known anyone except their wives are really poor. They don’t know how many nuances, how many fragrances, how many different ecstasies are possible through love.
The same is true about children. They should be available to the whole commune, and because the commune is responsible, you need not be afraid of what will happen to the children if you separate. You can separate, nothing will happen to the children – the children will be the same.
How do you relate that to a Western society where most people live as an individual family in a home, not a commune? What should happen there?
It can be immediately transformed into a commune, there is no problem. Just understanding is needed: a whole big building which has ten thousand people living in it can become a commune. It is a question of understanding, there is no problem in it. There are skyscraper buildings – each building can be a commune.
And a street row of houses?
Yes, they can also become communes. We are making communes all over the world, purchasing properties, different houses, making communes. Sometimes we have difficulty getting all the houses together in one place. No difficulty then, either: we have one main house, the meeting house, and the commune people live in different places.
But they have dropped the idea of the family. It is not a question of arrangements, arrangements can be made very easily. The question is of understanding. Our mind is created by the family, so it is very difficult to think that there should be no family. But the family is the basic unit of the nation. Unless the family disappears, the nation cannot disappear. The family is the basic unit of the church, so I am cutting at the very root.
You sure are.
If the family disappears, then nations cannot exist anymore. Churches and their congregations will simply disappear from the world. We need individuals, I respect the individual the most. The individual should be able to have as many experiences about everything as he is capable of, so that all his potential becomes actual.
Right now the situation is really sad. Even our geniuses like Albert Einstein use only fifteen percent of their potential. What a poor world we are creating. If an Albert Einstein uses only fifteen percent of his potential, then what about the ordinary people? – perhaps three percent, four percent, at the most five percent… And you will call these people talented. Beyond five percent you will call them geniuses. I am not ready for this retarded world.
You talked before about women as sexual partners and as lovers, but you see them as a lot more than that. In fact, looking around here, it would seem to me that it's the women who are running the place.
Yes, that is true.
What's wrong with the men?
Man has been running the whole of society for thousands of years, and he has proved absolutely impotent to run society in the right direction. Give a chance to the woman now.
My commune is running far better than any society which is dominated by male chauvinists. It is running perfectly beautifully, there is no problem. All my communes around the world are run by women. Man has proved his incapacity: he has tried hard enough to repress women, to keep them uneducated, to keep them economically dependent, to keep them almost like cattle, so that he can prove he is very superior. But the basic phenomenon is that man feels inferior before a woman because he cannot give birth to a child. The woman can give birth to a child; man’s function in giving birth is only that of an injection.
The woman has the capacity to give birth to children; that creates a deep sense of inferiority in man. To cover it up he started repressing woman, cutting her talents, telling her that she is not capable of anything, that she is only capable of doing the job of cooking, taking care of the children, washing the floor. She is not capable of more than that, only man is capable of all the great things.
All religions are founded by men, and all religions have condemned women. Jainism, one of the most ancient religions in India, says that from the body of a woman nobody can be liberated, nobody can become enlightened. From the female body, nobody can grow into consciousness. Strange: the same people go on teaching that body and soul are separate, and the soul is neither male nor female, and that growth happens in the soul, and that liberation is of the soul, not of the body. Then why can’t women enter into paradise?
No, they have to be put down in every possible way. First, they should practice religious disciplines so that they are born in a man’s body in their next life. All that they can do right now is to pray, to meditate, to fast – to get into a man’s body in the next life. Then there is a possibility, from the female body there is no possibility. In India they were not allowed to read religious scriptures.
Jesus had twelve apostles, twelve idiots around him, who could not do anything to save the man. They all knew that the next day he was going to be crucified, they all knew that he was going to be caught that night, and not a single one of them was courageous enough to tell Jesus that going to Jerusalem was suicidal: “There is no need. Why should we go there? It is not the right time, you will be crucified.”
Not a single woman was Jesus’ apostle, but when he was crucified all the men had escaped. Only three women were there under the cross: his mother, Mary; his lover perhaps, Mary Magdalene, who was a prostitute; and another woman called Martha. All the apostles had disappeared.
Men have been telling women that they are weak, which is medically wrong: women live longer than men, five years longer. Women suffer less from diseases than men, women go mad half as often as men, women commit suicide half as often as men. Still, the woman is weak, and she has to be kept cut at every corner so she cannot grow. And half of society consists of women. They give birth to your children.
What you are doing to the woman you are also doing to your children, because they will be taking care of the children; the children will be learning from and imitating the woman. That’s why every language is called the mother tongue. Even Germans don’t have the guts to call their language father tongue.
So when you die, will a woman become the leader of the Rajneeshees?
I don’t care, I don’t care at all. I am a man who is not concerned with past or future.
But you care for the future of Rajneeshees?
I care in this moment, it is not caring about their future. In this moment I care, what happens tomorrow I have nothing to do with. But in this moment, whatsoever response arises in me I have to share with my people.
Have you met a woman who could do the job that you're doing as well?
It is very difficult to say because unless the opportunity is given, one never knows what a woman can do, what a man can do. It is always the opportunity. While I am here it is difficult for any woman to do what I am doing. Once I am gone, perhaps a woman can do it better than a man. Perhaps she may do even better than me – after all, unfortunately I belong to the male race.
Would you have liked to have been a woman?
No, because I love women so much. I would not be able to love men, that would be the difficulty.
What makes you so special, why are you the one who is the leader? You tell people things, and they follow what you say, but why you? Why not somebody else? Or why not nobody? Could these people not just follow your philosophies without you telling them?
Ask them, because I am not their leader. I have not told them that they are my followers. I have not asked them to come and be here with me. It is their business and their problem and their responsibility. I am a very irresponsible person. I don’t take anybody else’s responsibility, it is enough that I take my own responsibility. You will have to ask my people why.
Does it surprise you that they follow you the way they do?
It surprises me immensely, it is really a miracle. I am nobody’s leader, but there are half a million people who think they are my followers.
Do you enjoy the adoration?
No, not at all, I hate it. I enjoy friendship. Adoration is putting somebody high above you. I don’t have any ego; I am not higher than anybody else, not holier than anybody else. But it certainly surprises me. They adore – they must be crazy! Now what can I do about it? You tell me.
I'd just go along with it.
That’s okay.
I'm not going to ask you about your Rolls Royces and I'm not going to ask you about your half-million-dollar watch, but I know that any fashion-conscious person, particularly women, who'd seen you would say, “Where does he get those magnificent clothes from?”
My women make them. They love to see me in fabulous clothes.
Are you fashion conscious?
I love everything that is beautiful. I will not say I am fashion conscious, because my robe is not a fashion.
Well I've got a feeling you might be going to start a new fashion.
That is possible. I love everything that is beautiful, but I am not fashion conscious, otherwise I would be imitating somebody else who is fashionable. My people design my clothes, they enjoy, and they know that I love only the best of everything. So they do it and try their best. And I am perfectly contented with my people – in fact, I adore them. Nobody has been so fortunate as I am.
Jesus certainly was surrounded by fools. Buddha had not the guts to allow women to enter his commune; for almost twenty years he continuously refused to initiate a woman. What was the fear? And when he was asked why, he said, “If I allow woman into the commune, then my religion will last only five hundred years. If I don’t allow women into my commune, my religion will last for five thousand years.”
But why this desire that the religion should last for five thousand years? This seems to be only greed – immense greed – to keep your firm running for five thousand years. What is the point? And why are you afraid that if you allow women entry, your religion will be gone within five hundred years? The fear is every man’s fear.
Man feels deep down that he is inferior; the woman is superior, she is beautiful. The man also tries to imitate: for what reason does he shave his mustache, his beard? Just think of a woman growing a beard and mustache – do you think she will look very beautiful?
She'd be in the circus.
Yes, and that is the situation of the men who have cut their beards and mustaches – they are in the circus.
You've raised a lot of consciousness, I know. I can predict that already from what we've talked about here. Are you serious about it all, or is it all just one big joke?
Not serious at all. It is all a big joke. Seriousness is not my business at all. I am an absolutely non-serious person, enjoying the small things of life, unconcerned about the next moment. I have lived my whole life this way and I don’t repent, I don’t feel that I have missed anything.
Perhaps a final message to the people in Western Australia about you, about what they're going to hear from you in the future, and perhaps what they're going to see from you?
Nothing can be said about the future, but they will see some great circus, certainly.
Thank you for agreeing to appear on the program.
I was glad to talk to you.
It's been a pleasure.
Come again and again whenever you can, and tell the people there that I am coming.

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