:: INTERVIEW ::

Swami Om Prakash Saraswati was the epitome of a disciple. Lovingly known as Swamiji, his commitment and surrender to his master, Osho, was total and absolute. Sent by his master to start a meditation center in Delhi, Swamiji as a true disciple, with love, devotion and dedication became the vehicle of his beloved master in spreading His vision. While he continued to work and promote the vision of Osho, he went deeper into his spiritual journey. While Swamiji blossomed in meditation, his inner growth manifested in his work. This section is dedicated to experiences of sannyasins who have come in direct contact with Swamiji at some point of time and have been inspired by his compassion, dedication and commitment.
(Click here to know more about Swami Om Prakash Saraswati)

AA- Namaskar Swamiji
VA- Namaskar

AA- What is your Legal name?
VA- My legal name is Vishwabandhu Shukla

AA-Sannyas Name ?
VA- My Sannyas name is Swami Vairagya Amrit

AA- When did you take Sannyas?
VA- I took sannyas in 1971.

AA- Where did you take sannyas?
VA- I took sannyas in 1971 when Osho visited Gadarwara and He was initiating people into sannyas at his home. I was young at that time and many of Osho's close and childhood friends with whom He studied and played together, were taking sannyas. All the people were sitting in chairs in front of Osho, so I got this advantage of sitting next to Osho. Since all the chairs were occupied, Osho Himself called me and made me sit next to Him. Not only that all the time He kept one of His hand on my head and tears kept flowing from my eyes while he went on speaking to people and initiating them into sannyas. Many people took sannyas that day and I wondered whether my turn will come at all. I was very much looking forward to take sannyas as I had the opportunity to go to Manali but it could not materialize due to some reason. I was studying in college. I had missed that opportunity. Osho Himself had written a letter to my elder brother asking him to come to Manali. So this time I was a bit apprehensive whether I would be able to take sannyas. Many people were initiated into sannyas and I kept watching them with a tearful face and then I said that I also want to take sannyas. Osho said, you are already a sannyasin, only a name has to given to you. Then Osho gave my name and this is how I got initiated as a sannyasin in Osho's home.

AA - You lived in close association with Osho. Can you tell us something about your family and since your elder brother was a friend of Osho. What is your date of birth and how old were you when you got initiated into sannyas?
VA- My date of birth is 25th April, 1948. I took sannyas in 1971. We had a family relation with Osho since my elder brother was one of Osho's close friends and since their childhood they have studied and played together. All the stories that Osho narrates about His childhood, my brother was a part of it. My brother's closeness with Osho is in itself unique though I wouldnot like to elaborate but I was much benefited by it. As far as I could remember since the beginning Osho was reserved by nature. He was not approachable to many people and in those days He did not even want a crowd near Him and it did not happen also because Osho was not very famous at that time. Due to my brother, I could go near Him and since I knew everybody in Osho's family and often visited each other, it turned into an occasion to be near Him. Both our families were living close by. I could see that even Osho wanted that I should come to Him. There was a deep yes from Him for me to come. There have been many a occasions when I felt that He wanted me to come close to Him. I felt from my very childhood and ever since I was aware that Osho is my beginning and my end. I never felt any other attraction that I have to do something else or become a somebody. Ever since I saw Osho, I realized that He is my beginning and my end. There is much to say but I will not elaborate because it doesnot have any end. Many times He had asked my brother about me. There is a beautiful garden in Gadarwara where Osho used to have talks. I used to be present there amidst other friends and a little gathering. I used to get a message that I could come there and I used to be present there. Once it so happened that one of Osho's close friends just like my brother and whom I knew was surprised to see me in the gathering and asked me how I was present there as I was a kid. What Osho was talking about was not understable to me as I was very young. I did not say much to him but just said that you can ask Osho. I come with His permission and yes I cannot understand what Osho is saying but I am attracted towards Him and my connection with Him cannot be described in words and that is why I come. Then he said nothing to me but there is another episode related to this one. A few years after my sannyas initiation when I reached Gadarwara as a part of Kirtan Mandali, the same person was not in good health. He had invited us for lunch at his place. He had not taken sannyas till then. During our conversations, I very tenderly reminded him to take sannyas from Osho since he was not well and such a moment was not to be lost. I also reminded him that "You might remember that when I was young, you used to tell me that when I cannot understand Osho's words, how come I used to come to Him. I don't know how but it feels that I have understood Him but it seems that now you have to understand and that's why you have come nearer to Him." My words touched him and after that he took sannyas from Osho. This is how my sannyas had began. After the sannyas Osho told me that "now you have to come and live with me and get involved in my work". I was not clear what His work was, what I can do and what was the scope of His works. Osho said to my brother that take him with you to Mt. Abu where a camp was being organized and I went to Mt. Abu. It so happened that my brother went to meet Osho early without me and as soon as he was with Osho, He did not ask how are you or good that you have come here but the only question He asked to my brother there was "where is Vairagya, have you brought him or not". My brother said "yes I have brought him with me and he is where we are putting up". Osho said, "Go and bring him here now". So somebody was sent to fetch me and soon I was in His presence. The three of us were there, Osho, my brother and me and Osho said to my brother that now you give him to me and he will stay with me only. My brother said, he is yours only and since then and till now I am with Osho.

AA- Initially you came in contact with Osho as a friend of your brother……..
VA-Yes, in the beginning, since Osho was eldest in His family, we all used to call him brother. For a long time I have been addressing Osho as brother ("bhaiya"). In our place we call the eldest son brother, a very revered word. I was connected to Him even before sannyas and there was a family friendship and we used to meditate with one of His brothers, but slowly I felt a difference. When I started traveling after sannyas and during one of these travels in Bombay Osho called me to Woodlands for some reason and I was there with Him, I saw a different glory of Osho. It was not long after sannyas when I went to His room, I felt that this address of brother will not be applicable anymore. I could not imagine how to address Him whether as Bhagwan or as master, then I never addressed Him with any title. I have spoken to Him many times after that but never addressed Him by a title. After dropping to call Him Brother, I dropped to address Him totally. Then I used to speak to Him without addressing Him and I felt that He is such a big incident that no address is enough for Him. 

AA- After that you stayed in Poona ashram?
VA - Yes, from 1971 onwards, on Osho's advise and with His permission and blessings we about 10-15 sannyasins toured India till 1974 or 1975, then emergency was declared in the country. When the emergency was declared we were in Lucknow. So it became very difficult under emergency after 1974 to continue traveling. We were doing kirtan on the streets of Lucknow, and we were stopped and taken to a police station and they inquired what we were doing gathered as a crowd. We remained in the Police station and kept talking to them but they were not ready to listen and they thought that we were anandmargis. Osho was not known to many people at that time. Then one senior officer came who knew Osho and I asked him to let all the sannyasins of Osho free. I told him that I am the leader of this group so I can be held back but there is no need to hold the others. I also told him that we are not anandmargis and showed him the mala and the round locket with Osho photo that we were wearing. We told him showing the locket that He is our guru and we are His disciples and that we are traveling to spread His vision and meditations. He had read Osho and knew all about Osho, so he let us go and advised us that it will be good if we stop our tour because of the emergency and that we will not be able to hold any public meeting. We then called Poona and asked Osho. Osho said that if it is not possible to hold the programmes then return to Poona. After returning to Poona we went to meet Osho. It was not like an ashram in Poona at that time. Only one house has been taken for Osho. That was House No. 33 and Osho renamed it as Lao Tzu house and the negotiations were in progress about House No. 17. We met Osho and the discussion went on for a long time. Osho asked about everything in details. Osho also felt that now these tours are not possible but He also felt that His work should continue. Osho did not want us to stop the work we were doing. So He said to us that now you all spread over the whole country and especially to the big cities and start spreading His work individually. Or else He advised us to go to the centers in different places and start working there. Osho told me that you decide where to send whom after speaking to my people all over India. Then I asked Osho where do you want me to go? Osho said you go to Calcutta, it is a big city. Though we have been to Calcutta earlier yet it was His wish that I should again go there. I along with 1-2 sannyasins went to Calcutta and stayed there for almost two months and a lot of work was accomplished there. Many new people got connected to Osho. Osho had told me before I left for Calcutta that "I am taking a house for you very soon, when you return, stay there." Since many people were not there, it was almost a personal matter. Then Jesus house was bought and I got a message that to return to Poona and I returned and stayed in Jesus House. Soon we bought 17 No. House. Only two people were staying at Jesus house, myself and one Ma. It was a big house. Then slowly the work of ashram began from there and then it became an ongoing process. During one of our "kirtan mandali" tour in 1972, I met Swamiji in Kota. I would like to say that I could see two forms of Swamiji, one when I met him at Kota and the other when I met him in Delhi. When I met him in Kota in 1972, he was Om Prakashji and we used to address him by that name and now when we met him here we used to address him as Swamiji. It was as much suitable when we used to address him as Om Prakashji and now when we addressed him as Swamiji it was as much suitable for him. One thing that I observed and is very much a personal statement that happened between him and me. I am not concerned whether others understand or not. I saw a continuity inside him. Its not that he was not Swamiji then and suddenly he became Swamiji. Its true that we used to call him Om Prakashji when I met him in Kota, I became very close to him at once. It was such a deep connection that I did not feel that I am meeting him for the first time and that I donot know him. It was a very strange meeting with him, a beautiful meeting and it was from both sides. It was as much energy from Swamiji's end as it was from mine and it was a very beautiful meeting. I remember, though we were physically not together during the period when he was in Delhi and I was in Poona, yet I never felt that there was any gap in our connection. I never felt that he is in Delhi and I was in Poona, even though I was never in touch with him either through phone or letters. But that relation from within was always there. There was not a crack in that connection. It was an unique connection. When I met Swamiji at that time, he used to work in a office and ordinarily most people who work in offices are more like babu types but I found Swamiji different. He was not like them. From the beginning he seemed less like an office going person and more like a sannyasin or a disciple. His total dedication towards Osho and his inclination towards spirituality is what I saw within him. And because of this only I think I could come closer to him and a deep connection happened. Swamiji also showered in totality his love and care since those days and did everything possible from his end for us. Whenever we were on tour and especially to Rajasthan, I used to contact him. Inbetween, he used to advise on where to go and how to go and he used to give me always the contact addresses and numbers of people he knew especially in the state of Rajasthan. One thing that he always used to say about me and till the end he repeated the same words. Whether we call it his love or vision or whatsoever, he used to say "take good care of yourself". He told me these words then and even in his last days he showered so much of love on me that I don't know how to describe it in words and he kept repeating the same that take good care of yourself. In those days Swamiji used to go to the Mount Abu camps and we always as a part of our tour reach there. Osho Himself has said that after touring for three months we should gather where we can meet lot of friends. We used to discuss the work of Osho and plan for our next tour and all this used to happen in the presence of Osho. Then we also used to speak to people who had come to attend the camp. There were so many reasons to go to the Mt. Abu camp and Osho wanted that we should come and stay near Him. I will not go into details. So I used to meet Swamiji there, many times and whenever I used to meet him there used to be an unique closeness and that feeling used to be beautiful. It was something different that I never felt with other sannyasins. I cannot describe it but some beautiful closeness. He was not flamboyant that I am a senior sannyasin or someone special. There was something in him and between us that he and I could sense. However, there was change in him when he was in Poona. I was working in the same office where he was working and he behaved differently. He took care of me like a guardian. There are many incidents like this. There was a distance yet a closeness with him. He used to join me and my friends and share many happy moments with us. If I needed anything, he saw to it that it has been taken care of. Other than Osho, there has been very few friends with whom I had such a connection. When Osho was in body He took care of me in every way. When Swamiji was in Poona or I used to meet him anywhere, he took as much care and maintained that connection till the end.

AA- Any such instances you want to share.
VA - There are so many instances but its better if I donot make them public. But I will say this much in short that we shared a deep connection, I feel and I could see because he was a disciple and I am a disciple. We both met. I realized that a master gives many exposures to His disciples to grow. I feel that the commune was also a device of Osho where one could stay with Him and He can give exposures, where one could grow under His guidance. I have observed that with that kind of exposure we get to learn so many things altogether. We also learn from each other. We could also observe different disciple's in different exposures and their growth and we could see how a particular disciple acts or reacts in a certain situation. We could witness our own selves and at the same time get to see how His other disciples and our fellow travelers are transforming from inside themselves. I have seen Swamiji and others as well. Recently, I was looking at a photo album here and a particular photograph of Swamiji. If one observes the photograph closely, one can see the difference, his growth. One can observe that what Swamiji was in 1972, his appearance and his understanding or where he was at that time as a seeker and where he was in 2003. If one observes closely, one can see Swamiji's growth and inner transformation. Swamiji became enlightened, he became a Buddha or whatsoever about that I do not have the right to describe it. I would not like to take that right. That was something between the master and the disciple. What happened inside him can be felt and understood by him only. I could only say that the person I met in 1972 was no longer there in 2003. As I had stayed quite close to him, I saw his behaviour, his form, his physical appearance, his day to day activities, listened to his words and as such saw his total lifestyle, I could feel the transformation on each meeting. I could see him rising higher and higher on the ladder of consciousness. Consciousness and meditation is a personal experience and as such we cannot say much about others growth but what we see from outside, we can talk about it. The transformation can be experienced and known better by the person in whom the transformation has happened. Others cannot say much about it. Even if we see from outside, I would like to say that there was a transformation in Swamiji's face. If you observe then you can see how his face was transforming and his face was full of innocence, glow and love. When we came to Delhi, we have not planned anything that we are coming to Delhi, we have to reach here and stay here. We had no plans. I have observed with my life and also with anyone else who got connected with Osho, became a true disciple, I believe that the master directs their course of life. It has happened in my life as far as I could feel whether He is in His body or not, the master always guides the disciple. We could see how Swamiji has been guided by Osho for his inner journey. Everyone can be guided and the existence is available to everybody but to take that guidance depends on the person. As far as my understanding goes, I have in me surrender and dedication towards my master, affection and reverence and if one has these qualities then one is able to take that light of guidance. I have observed that Swamiji had all the qualities. I used to tell many times to our friends here in Delhi that if you scratch Swamiji from any angle you will only find Osho. I have observed many disciples by staying with Osho, in whom such an incident has happened and they blossomed and attained. The common thing that I have observed in all of them is that their surrender and dedication towards their master was total. Osho gave what He wanted to give to them who had these qualities. So it all depends upon the disciple how much he has bowed down and opened and how much he is ready to take. I have seen this in Swamiji because whenever you start talking about Osho with him, you could see his connection with Osho. How deeply he is connected with Osho, there was not a bit of show off or doubt in him for Osho. He was very clear. He knew what Osho has said and what He means and he could see the truth in its totality. And this can only be done by a person who has known and understood Osho completely. The one who had experienced it. This time when we came here and met Swamiji, he was very happy to see us and I too was very happy to see him because I could feel that he has blossomed even more that was so much visible. It was conspicuous that the flower was blooming to its fullest and its fragrance and nectar was in the air. It was such a beautiful feeling to sit with him and those days were really beautiful. There was this short period before his leaving his body and when we were in Delhi. Many times it has happened that if I am somewhere else for some work, and could not visit Swamiji, he used to send Ma Shakti to call me. Little did we used to converse. But at times we had a lot of discussions too. I used to look for moments when no one was around Swamiji, not even Shakti, or you, the I used to start a conversation that is between him and me. I respected his space and did not like to disturb him but at the same time I used to feel if I could get some space when Swamiji is alone and I could go and sit with Swamiji. Not to talk to him but just sit in his presence and it was a beautiful experience to sit in his presence. When nobody was around I used to peep through the curtain to see if Swamiji is alone. However, such moments were very rare. I used to see Swamiji sitting with his eyes closed. Every time I went inside when he was alone, I never found him sitting with open eyes. I always found him totally immersed in meditation. Once or twice when I found Swamiji sitting with closed eyes, I still wanted to go inside his room yet I was hesitant as I did not want to disturb his space but there was also an urge or what you may call greed to go and sit with him. So I used to move the curtain and enter very softly and sit silently in his presence. A few times I felt that Swamiji is not aware of my presence there but later I realized that he used to be very much aware of my presence there and he used to accept it that good that you have come. Then we both used to sit in silence. In his last days we hardly used to get into a discussion as I did not have anything to ask him or if I had a query that had already been discussed at some point of time. Whatsoever I wanted to know I had already asked him. Then sometimes someone used to come over and starts a conversation and we all used to participate. There was something unique about Swamiji which I have observed that whatsoever he achieved and attained, he never showed it off that see I have attained. Its not that he had hid it. He very much disclosed his attainment. It is something very unique and all the disciples should remember that if something happens inside then there is no need of showing, it is visible on its own. I feel that many a times Swamiji used to hide it. He used to speak with such simplicity and humbleness that I felt he hid his attainment rather than showing it of. To some people with whom he had a connection and knew that they are capable of understanding it, Swamiji might have told them but he never made it an extraordinary achievement. During that period when he was here, I went to meet him and obviously it was such an extraordinary incident that one could feel it in his presence. You cannot do anything about this as the mind and thoughts just go blank and that one feels only in the presence of such a person, just by sitting near him that something has happened inside him and that it is not an ordinary incident. When we used to do white robe with Swamiji, I cannot describe it in words but it is something beyond imagination. I had never known such a white robe for a very long time after Osho. The deep silence and awareness was something very unique. There are so many things that I do not want to disclose but sometimes I speak out something. Till His last days Osho had given me opportunities to learn something from other disciple who are in their inner journeys. There have been many opportunities in the ashram when someone was on the verge of leaving his body and I was present there. Starting from Vipasanna,(the western sannyasin) to Swamiji, I have been a witness to such incidents.

AA- And Mataji?

VA- Yes Mataji and Daddaji are included. I am so fortunate that Daddaji left his body in my lap. There are many other sannyasins whose names I do not remember from whom you get to learn so many things during those moments that how they are leaving their bodies and what is happening inside them. If we get a chance to observe then we can feel and see it. You can see what is happening in the body, the alteration in breath and heart beats. Something gets transformed and attach to it. I am grateful to the existence that I could be present here physically and I could witness how Swamiji was completing his journey and entering the other world. It is divine compassion for all that happened but it was a learning experience for me and I was very fortunate to be here at that time. If one is a true disciple and open to learn, then existence is ever ready to teach us and not only this but I would like to add that existence makes such arrangements and puts one in such a situation that he could learn something. As much as we become ready, existence gives us more opportunities so that we get to learn something and it is one such big experience for me. 

AA- You said that in Poona, Daddaji and Mataji left their bodies and Osho has also mentioned it. Is there something that you remember when Swamiji left his body or see any commonality or discommonality.
VA - Osho says that every person is unique, distinct and an individual but from what I have seen according to my understanding, there is some similarity somewhere because that incident is similar which you may call enlightenment or samadhi or meditation or whatsoever you may call it but the feeling that you experience is the same. I have seen that with Mataji, Dadaji and with Osho, somewhere that feeling has been the same. If we had observed Swamiji's face because we cannot see what was happening inside but it was written on his face. Those who have not been present could make it out from the photographs. I had to observe attentively to make out whether it was Swamiji's face or Osho's, I mean it was just one. When we sat near his body after you called us though we had met him the night before and I felt that so many things are happening and probably Swamiji will not be in his body for long. At that moment I saw in him that he wanted to share so many things. It seemed as if he was feeling that the pot was full to the brim and wanted to pour out everything. We, a few friends were there, Sakshi, Naina, Shakti, Amit and Dakshina were also there, I don't know whether they felt the same or not, but when he called us and his hand lovingly caressed our heads with love and he moved as much as his body allowed him, it was as if he was pouring everything on us. It was a strange situation and his touch was extraordinary. I will never forget those moments because that was very special to me. These are some of things that I can share with you. About attaining enlightenment is something that I cannot say because it is impossible to say and have no right to say but whatsoever happened it was unique. It was full of grace, something about which we had only heard but also could see and witness. It is my personal experience and it is not necessary that everyone should agree.

AA-Thank you Swamiji.