:: INTERVIEW ::

When did you meet Swamiji for the first time?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - Swamiji had come to Mount Abu for attending a camp. He had not taken sannyas at that time. I was there where Osho was staying. Swamiji also came there to meet Osho. Someone introduced us and said she is Ma Dharam Jyoti. I was in orange clothes. I greeted him with a Namaskar. He bowed down to touch my feet. But I stopped his hands. I said please do not touch my feet. Then we hugged. Then he said that I am also taking sannyas. That was the first meeting with Swamiji. After Mount Abu, I met him in Poona Commune when he was working there. One day I went to the commune office and there was a celebration going on. I asked what was happening. Vidya said that Om Prakash has become grandfather. There was a phone call that a son has been born to one of his sons. Swamiji had a packet of sweets in his hands and he was putting sweets into everyone’s mouth. He put one into my mouth too. I said congratulations. Then for the secnd time we hugged. These were the two short and sweet meetings that I had with Swamiji. After many years we met in Rajneeshpuram. Then I came to know that Swamiji has shifted to Delhi and is running Rajyoga Center. I was working in the accounts department and whenever I used to check the account of Rajyoga, I used be surprised with the amount of books being bought by Rajyoga. The name Rajyoga itself used to make me imagine the center to be very big. Once we received a cheque of Rs. 60,000 from Rajyoga and the cheque bounced. Then I spoke to Swamiji on the phone. Savita was the accounts coordinator and when I told her that cheque received from Rajyoga had bounced, she said “ call them this is too much you know ..........we have no money in account”. I dialed Swamiji’s phone and spoke to him. He told me to deposit the cheque in the coming week and said it will be cleared. It was a short conversation with Swamiji and he said sorry for what has happened and told us not to worry as the cheque will get cleared and it got cleared.

So you never met in Poona?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - No, We could not meet in Poona. Maybe When I went to Poona, Swamiji had already shifted to Delhi. When I used to visit the Commune, I hardly used to go to the office as I was not working there. Then suddenly, one day he appeared in Rajneeshpuram. I was working in Zarathustra and he was also sent there to work. I was very happy meet him there. He told me that he will stay there for three months and work. Since he was elderly, he was given the charge of quality control that required less movement. We used to check each and everything whether it’s a book or a photograph. Our coordinator expected him like everyone else to be at work by 7 in the morning. Everybody used to work from seven in the morning but Swamiji told me that it will not be possible for him to come at seven. He said, “I will come at nine, explain it to her”. I asked Swamiji, “what about your breakfast”. He said, “breakfast is out of question, when will I get ready and then go for breakfast, I cannot do things in a hurry”. Then he said that he needs to drink milk every night. I helped him in these little matters. I went to his trailer and found a vessel. I informed Swamiji that milk is kept in the refrigerator and he can have it every night. I also said that I go for breakfast so I can get him something to eat. So I used to get banana or bread butter packed for him. I spoke to the coordinator also that how you can expect him to come at seven, he can come at nine. So she also realized. Swamiji used to wait at the bus stop for a bus and the frequency of bus was almost half hour from where he was put to stay. A few people were staying there. He used to keep standing for half an hour waiting for a bus. Once I asked him why donot you take a lift from the many vehicles that pass from there. He said no one stops. I said no one will stop unless you wave for a lift. So on these few occasions I helped him. For these little things he was so grateful. He told me that “because of you I could stay in Rajneeshpuram otherwise it was so difficult, you helped me”. He used to take these little incidents so seriously. We were in the same department in Rajneeshpuram, so during tea break we used to take tea together. No one used to chat much but we used to sit together. I used to feel very good, sitting next to him. I was fortunate to be in close association with him in Rajneeshpuram. Then Swamiji came back and after Sheela had left, much of my money got blocked there. I had transferred lots of money from Bombay. They said that take anything but cash will not be given. So I called Swamiji in Rajyoga and asked him that if he wants anything from there, I will make payment from my account and get it delivered here. I asked him to tell Vivek Bhaiya not the make the payments. As I was working in the accounts department I had the knowledge of what was being purchased and that Vivek was making the payments. So Swamiji gave me Vivek’s phone number to inform him not to make the payments. About 1700 dollars I spent for purchasing videos and other things. Swamiji paid me when I came here. When we came back from Rajneeshpuram to Delhi, there was a foreigner woman sannyasin at the airport. So many people were arriving in Delhi to meet Osho and go to Manali. She told us that there is no space at Rajyoga & nobody should go there & it is overcrowded already. Taru Ma was with me along with others. So we asked the Ma, if there was some hotel near Rajyoga Center. She said there is Shyama International Inn. So we all took a Taxi and reached here.

You stayed in Shyama?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - Yes, we stayed in Shyama hotel because we wanted to go to Manali to meet Osho. Swamiji came to meet us there when he got the information that we were there. I told Swamiji that we definitely have to go to Manali to meet Osho.Swamiji told me that for that payment have to be made and we cannot stay there for more than three days. I said payment is not a problem but I have to go. Then Swamiji said very lovingly that there is no space in Rajyoga. Many people are staying there. People are coming and going. He told me to go to Manali by myself and meet him on my return. Rajesh came to meet us at around 11 at night. He came to know that me and Taru ma had reached Delhi. He said my house is lying empty, why are you putting up in a hotel. Check out now and he took us to his house. Laxmi ma was also in Delhi. We went to meet her the next day. She told us that everyday a vehicle come to Delhi. Asheesh comes for shopping. She told us to wait and go in that vehicle. We waited for two days then we told Rajesh to get us bus tickets to Manali. We got the bus tickets and the car also came that day. In between we kept meeting Laxmi ma. Then Rajesh told us to go by the car and throw away the bus tickets. We went by car and on returning I met Swamiji. I donated Rs. 5000 for my stay in Manali and I knew that so much of money was being spent that there is a need for money. Ma Neelam had said that those coming from Rajneeshpuram need not make any payment as they are guests. But I felt that I have the money so I can pay. So these little meetings with Swamiji kept happening. Then Prem and her mother came here. I had a beautiful relationship with them when they were in Poona. So I used come here whenever I had to go to Haridwar or somewhere, I came and stayed here on my way. On one occasion Swamiji took me with him to see the plot for Osho Dham. He said we have bought this plot. All I could see there were a few lemon plants. Swamiji said I will make a small mandir for you here, come and stay here. I had this feeling that something was on his mind to call me here. Swamiji used to keep on passing this remark to me to come over from time to time. When Osho Dham was to be inaugurated in the month of March, I was in Bhuj leading a camp. Swami Narendra had a heart problem and all his camps were cancelled. The people in Bhuj were not keen on canceling the camp and they asked that anyone can come for leading the camp. So Neelam ma told me to go and I went. That was the first camp that I led in Bhuj. I kept my room locked in my absence. When I returned from Bhuj, I found an envelope on the latch. When I opened I found that it was an invitation card from Rajyoga on which it was written ‘inauguration by Ma Dharam Jyoti’. I wondered how could this be printed without my consent. Immediately I called Ma Neelam in her office. I asked her if she knows that Osho Dham is being inaugurated on 21st March and I have received an invitation card. She told me that when you were in Bhuj, there was phone call from Swamiji that on 21st March Osho Dham was being inaugurated and would like Jyoti to do it. Ma Neelam said that she told Swamiji I am not in Poona but he said he has to print the cards and send out the invitations, so “say yes for her, I will speak to her”. I could not imagine to be away from the commune on the celebration day. That was my first celebration outside the commune. So I made a phone call to Swamiji. I said you have printed the invitation cards and send them out too but I want celebrate 21st March here in the commune. Swamiji said is there a point in talking about this now. He said that cards have been printed and distributed, you have to come. Then he asked “are you getting your ticket there or should I send one?” I thought everything has been arranged, so I came here. Osho Dham was inaugurated. Camps were organized every six months. Then when I decided to move out of the commune, Swamiji told me to come here rather than moving in the flat there. I liked Osho Dham and I agreed. Before that he used to call and ask every now and then when I am coming here but I was indecisive whether to come to Osho Dham or not. So one day I made a phone call to him. Swamiji asked me when I am coming. I said I will see. Then lovingly he scolded me, “what is there to see, I am offering you a diamond in a silver plate and you are saying I will see. No need to think, just come.” Swamiji was persuading me to come, knowing my hesitation. Then we regularly spoke on the phone and he used to ask always what I was doing. One day I told him that I am packing and sorting my belongings. He said what is there to sort, I am sending a truck, put everything in and come. That’s how I came here.

Till the last moment you had a deep connection with Swamiji. After coming here did it deepen more?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - I felt a deeper heart connection with him. Swamiji and myself were the only ones to live in Osho Dham for about six months when I came here. Camps were organized every month. We did not converse much, he used to be in his room andI used to be in mine. We used to have our meals together and then sit togther for some time. But I never felt that he is not close. It was a beautiful feeling that he was there and I was there. Sometimes we used to get into a conversation. Those days Swamiji had developed a liking for films. Every evening he watched a film and used to call me to join him. I did not like the violence in the films, so I used to sit for 5-10 minutes and then leave telling that I do not likethis type of films. So one day he sent me a message that he was about to watch Love Story and asked me to join him. Then he asked me what I do just sitting in my room. I answered that after many years I have got this opportunity to be in silence and I am enjoying these days, meditating and listening to Osho. He told me not to become a Jain Sadhvi. I can say this much that Swamiji was an epitome of Osho’s vision of Zorba the Buddha. He lived in totality both inside and outside. I was of the Buddha type. I had less bent towards Zorba. I used to watch Swamiji enjoying little things. He used to have ice creams those days and will ask me to have it too. When I refused he said you have to eat, it will not make you less meditative. Very lovingly Swamiji used to take care of others. He took much care of me till the end. Everyday Inderpal used to tell me that Swamiji had asked if I wanted something from the market. Swamiji used to take care of every thing. In the beginning when I came here I missed my friends and it was my habit to call immediately and speak to them whenever I missed and remembered someone. Swamiji had a STD phone. I was very hesitant to ask him for his phone to make a call. So one day I decided to talk to Swamiji. I told him that I miss my friends and feel like talking to them on the phone and I am hesitant of making a long distance call. I also told him that for all my private calls I will make the payments so that I can make calls whenever I have a feeling. After hearing this, Swamiji gave me a good scolding. He said it is not hesitation but your pride. He said hesitation is the other side of pride. Then he said why are you still lingering between “I” and “You”. He said “are you not ashamed of talking about payments”, “you can make as many calls as you want, I speak to Vivek in Chicago for more than half an hour whenever I feel like”. Swamiji then said “ the divine is showering and you are covering yourself with an umbrella”. I was really touched by his words. I realized that he is right, it is my pride. My awareness increased in Swamiji’s company. I had to watch my words because a single word would make a difference. So I have to become more aware in listening and saying because he was like that. In his company I realized that awareness. Once I had the chance of witnessing his anger. It was my first experinence of his anger. He was not angry with me but with someone else. But I was completely shaken inside. His anger was in 100 percent totality just like accomplishing any other of his work with totality. I told him that you have done wrong because the person with whom you got angry was not at fault. Then I went back to my room. I was offended with Swamiji for getting angry like that on someone. I felt that he had humiliated the other person which was not a proper thing to do. Early morning Inderpal came with the message that Swamiji has asked for me. When I went he asked for forgiveness. He told me that you were right and I have committed a mistake, I should not have got angry. He said that my blood pressure increases and I am not in control of myself, and I get angry, I am sorry. I told him not to ask for my forgiveness but to ask forgiveness from the person with whom he got angry. Swamiji said all right dial his phone number and I will ask for his forgiveness. This simplicity of Swamiji touched me. His realizing his fault and asking for forgiveness from someone who is from a lower strata has been Swamiji’s greatness. All these brought tears to my eyes that such was the greatness of this man that he always said sorry for what we felt as a wrong deed and doesnot hold on to that episode. Similarly, if someone does a small favour he was ever grateful. I used to think why be so grateful for such a small deed but this trait of Swamiji I can relate to Mataji. I used to take care of Osho’s mother. She also lived in moment and with totality. She also used to get angry like Swamiji and scold me too but after five minutes she becomes as normal as she was. If someone did a little work for her she would be so thankful that you have done so much for me. Same was the case with Swamiji. When Pooja came from Bombay to lead a camp here and when Swamiji came to know that the camp was very good, he called me and said “I am very grateful to you to bring Pooja here”. I was touched and told Swamiji that she came on her own. But he said you have brought her here and I want to thank you for this. Such was the greatness of Swamiji. Same was with Mataji who has taught me a lot. Accepting gifts was burdensome for me. Whenever somebody brought me a gift I used to think I donot need it and would refuse. I felt that when somebody is making a gift he/she is doing me a favour which was like a burden on me. I had that feeling though I loved giving gifts to others. Mataji used to tell me that this is wrong in your part to reject something that was brought so lovingly for you. She used to say, take it and say thanks, if you donot like it then give it to others but it is wrong on your part to tell the other person why have he brought it. This trait I found in Swamiji too. If somebody brought Swamiji something, he used to take it very lovingly and thank him. If he did not like it then later on he used to give it to somebody. I learnt from Mataji and then from Swamiji to accept gifts. Swamiji used to tell me “if you love giving and the other person also loves to give then does it makes you degraded, what holds you?” Once Swamiji came to Poona with Ma Sashi and Sakshi. On the first day he had taken his food at Mariam which did not suit him. He said “if I have to take this food then lets go back tomorrow”. I had a small pantry in my room with a square table and a hot plate. So with Ma Sashi, I used to prepare food there. Preparing daal, curries and chappatis, we used to call Swamiji and in my room he used to have his food. In the morning Swamiji used to take garlic with warm water, so this little things I did for him. My room was close to Swamiji’s room, so every morning at six I used to bring him a glass of warm water and garlic and at breakfast time I used to bring him a bowl of Papaya. Doing this much gave me joybut he felt that I have done much for him. When someone came to Poona from delhi, he brought me an envelope that Swamiji had sent. I opened the envelope and found that it contained 5000 rupees. I wondered why has he sent it and then spoke to Swamiji on the phone. He said it is for you. I asked him why? Swamiji said “get yourself anything you want, I am very grateful to you for taking care of me. I do not know how to thank you”. But accepting that amount was burdensome for me so I said that since I am coming to Delhi, we will talk there. He told me that now talk is over on this episode and he kept the phone down.

You were close associated with Swamiji. What in you view was the relation between Osho and Swamiji, as a master disciple and what was his guru’s influence on him?

Ma Dharam Jyoti- I have this feeling that Swamiji’s surrender was total for Osho and so was his reverence. As Osho has said for a disciple not to use his intellect. Swamiji was like that without giving a second thought, just carry out master’s wishes. On one hand was his reverence and total dedication and on the other was the determination to do things. This was an unique combination I found in Swamiji. When it came to determination to do things, it was with total determination that he carried out the task. And when it came to surrender it was a total surrender. It is difficult to find these two traits together in a person which I found in Swamiji. Osho had said, “create a place for me” and Swamiji worked for it in totality without thinking what will happen later. When it came to detemination, he became a Zen Master with a stick. His unique feature was his courage to call wrong a wrong. No compromise on a wrong thing. I remember in one discourse osho had said “ I call a spade a fucking spade” and very loudly Osho had said that. Swamiji also spoke the same language and that’s why some people used to get annoyed with him. If he finds a person a fool, he called him a fool. Swamiji never had this habit of giving a thought or beating around the bush. He was straight forward to say it at the face. He had a clear vision to see things as they are.

Are these qualities of Swamiji a result of his guru’s compassion or his meditations?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - I feel that it is less of compassion. It is an understanding of the one who has understood his master in totality. Osho’s main message was to have the courage to call wrong a wrong, no comprmise with a wrong. I feel that Swamiji has understood Osho completely and followed His insight through his life. And for this Swamiji must have paid heavily because people do not have the habit of hearing such bitter truths. Swamiji never knew flattery. I have never seen him do so. This was the unique courage in him to see things clearly.

In May 2000, he declared his enlightenment. You have been with Osho and other sannyasins who were enlightened. What difference do you note before and after May 2000 in Swamiji?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - I could see a difference. After he declared his enlightenment, he became more sharing and giving. He used to give before his enlightenment too but after May 2000 he became more and more giving as if he is throwing with open hands. His nature had changed. I have never seen him getting angry after his enlightenment. He became silent. Whenever somebody visited him, he used to receive, talk and was very hospitable to him. After enlightenment he started sharing more. If he wanted to have a mango shake for lunch then he used to make sure that everyone shares with him. 

Did you feel a difference in his energy?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - Most of the time he used to sit with his eyes closed as if he is drown in himself. He used to be very silent. I used to speak to him for 5-10 minutes and he always asked what was going on and how is everything? Then I sat silently with him. He used to close his eyes and sit silently. I felt good to sit silently with him. Then he started satsang. Everybody felt the energy in satsang. A feeling started happening in his presence that something has happened to him which we cannot describe. Whereas he had spoken to us about this. I feel that his journey was successful. He attained what he had to.

You were present in Poona when Osho, Dada and Mataji left their bodies and then you were here when Swamiji left his body. Do you see a link, similarity or dissimilarity in the four cases?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - At the time of Dada’s leaving his body I was not in Poona. I have seen Mataji’s leaving her body from a close quarter as in the case of Swamiji. There is a tremendous release of energy at the time of one’s leaving his body as I witnessed with Mataji. Till the end she was conscious and when she took the last breath there was burst of energy which I felt here when Swamiji left his body. When Osho left His body, all I felt was that my brain stopped working like a person in shock who is not aware of what was happening in the surrounding. Loud music and drum beats was vibrating in the atmosphere. Like here that energy also happened there but the atmosphere was very noisy and disturbing and strange. I did not had that feeling of the energy there that I had here. Tears were flowing and brain had stopped working. I couldnot understand what was happening there. I went to the burning ghats and reached where His body was kept. I kept looking at the body. Till three o clock I kept standing there. Mind was not working so could not understand what was happening. It was in the month of January and it was very cold. I had gone there in my white robe with a shawl. Then I slept after I came back. I went into a deep sleep. I did not realize anything. Then in the morning, I got up and went out through the back gate towards Lao Tzu. I felt that everything is in a samadhi, not even a movement of the leaves. In that pin drop silence I felt the energy. I went and sat outside the gate. There was a strange feeling in the atmosphere as if some very big explosion has taken place. That I realized in the silence in the morning. For sometime I walked and sat with closed eyes and then came back to dadaji’s samadhi and sat silently there. There also was the same feeling. Then it was rumoured that the commune might close down, things may not be available. I was working in Zarathustra and we immediately got back to work. Here we got the opportunity to drink that energy which we missed in the commune. All I can say is that I felt this same energy when mataji left her body. As I think I have told you that when I went to Swamiji’s room in the morning and Swamiji’s body was on the bed I was suddenly shocked as if Osho was lying on the bed. Because I have seen Osho too lying on the bed from near. Then I realized that he is no more breathing. But it seemed that he was just lying on the bed and that nothing is wrong, not that he is not in his body. Then I touched his forehead and felt the coldness. I realized that his body has become silent. It was a beautiful moment to drink that energy and meditate. Now his presence is felt every moment. Yesterday I was talking to ma Shakti that “you have said everything, I will speak ditto” This is my experinence too. I have never felt that he has left us. A strong presence is felt always. Of course we cannot verbally speak to him as he is not in his physical body but if one goes and sits in his room the same energy is felt. If one finds it difficult to get into meditation, it is as if his energy is helping us to go deeper into silence.

You were very close to Mataji in her last days, so did you feel that she is going to leave her body or some other indication?

Ma Dharam Jyoti - Mataji was in good health. One day she was getting ready for white robe when her comb slipped from her hand. She called me and said “see what has happened to my hand, the comb fell from my hand”. I lifted her arm and when I released her arm fell again. Then I felt that she might have suffered a paralytical stroke. Then I asked her to lie down and said “I do not know what has happened to your arm”? I called Amit to come and see what has happened to Mataji. We took her to the hospital and in 2-3 days she recovered and her hand started working. I was going on a holiday and the ticket was booked, I was in dilemma whether to go or not since Mataji was not well and she was to be released from the hospital the next day. Then I decided to ask her. I told her that I have a ticket booked to go on a holiday which I am cancelling because you are not well. Somehow she heard otherwise and said “good that you have cancelled your ticket, do not go”. Amit was also present there and he repeated my words, she told me to get the ticket cancelled if it has not been cancelled. Then one of her daughter-in-laws came and said that it seems Mataji is getting into depression. I asked why she feels so. She told me that Mataji has started preparing a list for distributing her belongings. It seems as if she is getting ready to leave her body. I told her that Mataji is not going int depression but she is in full awareness, making a list to share her belongings so that in the event of her leaving her body, one should get what she has choosen for that person. Mataji returned from the hospital. I had cancelled my ticket and felt that now Mataji is much better. We started going for the white robe. One day while I was leaving for white robe, she called me and said see there is blood in my spit. Then I made her spit 2-3 times and found blood in her spit. We again took her to the hospital. She started vomiting blood on her way to hospital. She became aware of the fact that she is about to leave her body. A lot of tests were conducted in the hospital some of which were very painful but no clue was found from where the blood was coming. By that time Shailendra had reached the hospital. He told Mataji that one more test is left. She told him that “go ahead with the test otherwise it will always be in your mind that one test was not done”. The song she wrote in the hospital and sang in the Buddha hall clearly indicated that she was about to leave her body. She wrote clearly that “ Marne ki kala sikhayee Osho ne, Jeene ki kala Sikhayee Osho ne” Then after two days she left her body. That day she went for a walk through the commune. There were so many sannaysins who wanted to visit her but were hesitant as she was not well. That day she told me to take her out. She met the sannyasins on the way. Many foreigners loved Mataji. She could meet them all that day. On the previous day, as it is said that “before one leaves his body, his whole life is reflected like a reel”. During white robe we were sitting together outside and she told me everything about her life from the very beginning, about her childhood, marriage, motherhood, giving the complete picture ofher life. She said “ysfdu vkt rq>s crkrh gwa dke djrs&djrs jke fey x;s eq>sA That was the first time she said “Ram Mil Gaye Mujhe”. The next day in the morning she came to my room. I had an electric lamp that burnt like a earthen lamp and I used to keep it plugged all the time. She said that “Jyoti, I like this lamp of yours”. Then she went back to her room. I unplugged the lamp and told her to keep it. When I asked her where I should place it she told me to place it near head. When white robe started, I was near her, and she started to vomit blood again. Doctor came and examined but said that the test machines are not showing anything. Her nerves had become cramp but she was fullyconscious and was asking everyone to do kirtan, to sit silently, to help her sit and lie down. With awareness she left her body just like Swamiji. He was speaking to everyone a couple of days before leaving his body when he said “I have built Oshodham, now it is for you to take care of it. I have done my work”. So Swamiji was also giving indications.

That was going on for a long time.

Ma Dharam Jyoti - He had ceased the longing to live. Nothing helps when one himself decides to leave.

That was going on for long but in his compassion he was pulling through life.

Ma Dharam Jyoti - In the end I have an experience about Swamiji. I used to meet him every time I left center for a few days and he always used to ask me about the date of my return. So this time when I was leaving for Kuchwara, I went to meet him, he was sleeping. So I left without meeting him. On 22nd of March in Kuchwara, I lied down for sleep but could not sleep and I realized as if Swamiji was asking when I will be back and that I heard his voice and I was telling him that on 26th morning I will be there and he said he will wait. It was a very clear realization that when I will reach there everybody will be celebrating death and those scenes were clearly visible to me. It happened exactly the same way. He really waited for us to come back as most of us were away. We reached center and he met everybody in the evening. He left his body completely in awareness and waited till everyone was back and met them all.

Thank you